The Brand Clarity Framework That Makes You Impossible to Ignore

If your marketing budget keeps growing but your results keep flatlining, the problem isn't your ads; it's your foundation.

In this episode, I sit down with Paul Povolni, award-winning creative director, brand strategist, and founder of Voppa Creative, who has spent 34 years helping brands stop blending in and start owning the room. Paul unpacks his brand clarity framework, built around three foundational words: identity, gift, and edge. He walks through why most businesses are spending money on creative work before they've answered the questions that make that creative work actually convert.

We dig into the HeadSmack framework for leading creative teams, why "unlimited revisions" is a red flag (not a feature), and what it really means to grow your genius instead of grinding on your average. This one is for agency and business owners who are ready to stop guessing and start building from clarity.

Books Mentioned

• The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell

Connect with Paul and explore the brand clarity work he does at Voppa.com; you can also find him on most social platforms at @Voppa.

Check out Dr. William Attaway's new show, The Appreciation at Work Podcast!  

Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Paul Pavalny

Dr. William Attaway 0:00

I'm so excited today to have Paul Pavalny on the podcast. Paul is an award-winning creative director and brand strategist with 30 years of experience helping brands stop blending in and start connecting with the clients they're built for. As the founder of Vapa Creative, he has led award-winning teams, coached leaders and entrepreneurs through creative roadblocks, and developed the Head Smack Framework, a proven system for unlocking innovative thinking even in people who don't consider themselves creative. A conference keynote speaker and frequent podcast guest, Paul brings equal parts strategic firepower and hard-won creative instinct to everything he touches. Paul, I'm so glad you're here, man. Thanks for being on the show. Man, I'm excited for it. I've been looking forward to it.

Intro 0:53

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author, and leadership and executive coach, Dr. William Attaway.

From Creative Kid To Leading Teams

Dr. William Attaway 1:11

I want to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, Paul, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

Paul Povolni 1:22

So uh, you know, I was I was raised in Australia, and people would probably be asking as soon as I started talking, well, where is he from? Where's that accent from? So it's not quite pure Australian, but I was raised in Australia. My family migrated there when I was two. And, you know, I always was a creative kid, you know, always doing creative stuff, but never really stepped into leadership roles until I got older. I was always excited about getting involved with things and being involved with things, but you know, it wasn't until I got older that I started moving into roles that required me to be a leader. But I think one of the first times I really stepped into a leadership role was uh when I came to the United States and I went to Bible college. And being a foreign student, you didn't work off campus, you worked on campus. And I met uh somebody that was kind of, she would interview us and position us, you know, where we would go in this, you know, work in the school, whether we'd wash dishes, whatever we'd do. And she saw that I was creative. And so she asked, Well, you know, do you want to be the yearbook editor? And I was like, sure, what's a yearbook? You know, I had no idea what a yearbook was at that point. And so uh she goes, Well, it's a book that we put together, kind of highlighting the things that happened during the school year and whatever. I was like, Oh, absolutely sure. Then I'll I'll do that. And with that came a series of volunteers that also wanted to be part of the yearbook team. And that was really kind of my trial by fire of leading a team of creatives, is doing something that I'd never done, um, and leading people that needed to be led with very tight schedules, very tight deadlines, very precise ways that things needed to be done. So that was probably one of my first times into leadership. And then, of course, from that it went on to you know, having a job in the creative spec and then, you know, leading creatives as an art director, as a creative director, and it's just been leadership from that point on. So leading creatives is pretty simple, right?

Dr. William Attaway 3:17

I mean, they're pretty easy to lead. That's what I hear, right?

Paul Povolni 3:21

Well, you've heard wrong. You've heard wrong. Creatives are uh it's like somebody wrote a book on calling it herding cats or hurt herding tigers. And so, you know, herding, like herd, not hurting. Right. Sometimes you might be tempted, but I get it. Yeah, you might be tempted. You might be tempted. No, creatives, creatives are a unique, uh, unique creation uh by God. And I think they have unique needs and unique ways that uh they require to be led. And I think a lot of people uh struggle with leading creatives. I've I've seen it happen in businesses, I've seen it happen in churches. Uh, they don't know what to do with creatives uh because creatives don't like boxes, they don't like coloring inside the lines, they don't like just being told what to do and just being managed. They like to be uh led, they like to be inspired. And so it is, it is a unique thing, leading creatives.

Brand Strategy Without Volume And Hope

Dr. William Attaway 4:12

You know, I uh I described you earlier as a brand strategist, and that you help brands stop blending in and start connecting. What exactly does that mean? Some of our listeners may not be familiar with that role, and what exactly that entails?

Paul Povolni 4:27

Well, being a brand strategist means, you know, uh early on in my career, um, you know, brand strategy as a separate discipline wasn't really talked about. It was kind of part of what we did. And, you know, it it's it became a focused way of doing things after I was in a leadership position in a publishing company as creative director. And I realized that we weren't asking enough questions before we started being creative. And, you know, I didn't define that as being a brand strategist, but I realized that if we didn't ask the right questions before we started being creative, we'd be shooting arrows at targets we couldn't even see. And so we would create creative, we'd be busy, and then we'd present to the client, uh, the customer, and they'll look at that and say, well, that's way off. That's not even close to what I wanted. Um, you know, I wanted something totally different. And so I realized that early on that I wasn't asking enough questions. I wasn't asking the right questions. I wasn't spending time beforehand setting foundational things in place before I started being creative. And what I started referring to it as is painting graffiti on a moving train. You know, you're you're busy you're busy being creative, but you're not accomplishing a whole lot. And so uh what we'd do a lot of times is we'd be painting graffiti on a moving train. We'd be busy doing creative work, but without strategy, without the right insights in place, we were wasting a lot of time and not getting the results that we needed.

Dr. William Attaway 5:55

That sounds fascinating. I mean, to questions are something I love. I believe crafting the right questions is a skill and is something that we develop over time the more we do it if we're intentional about it. As you're helping brands, companies, organizations think about their brand, do you find that they they often have a pretty clear like roadmap of what that is? Or are you trying to help them from the very beginning?

Paul Povolni 6:24

Well, I think there's there's three types. There are ones that think they know but they don't. There are ones that think they know, but they're they don't have full insight. And then there are ones that just have no idea. And so, you know, I'm very much about asking the right questions. And I think the difference between a professional and an amateur is the questions they ask. And so asking the right questions a lot of times gives them that what I call brand clarity. And that brand clarity is the foundation for building everything that they build on. And so it is a matter of just asking them and making sure that what they're asking for is the right solution, that they've thought it through. Because sometimes you you can be so close to a problem, you can be so close to something that you think you have the answers, and you might have answers, but not the right answers. And so sometimes with uh brand clarity and brand strategy is you kind of dive into some of those things, those assumptions, those ideas that they have, and just make sure that they are actually the best thing for the brand. And it's not something that they just came up with because they thought it was the right thing.

Dr. William Attaway 7:30

That's really good. And I think that's where it's helpful to have a guide like you who can help them to navigate that, to ask the questions that maybe nobody else has ever asked them about this to help them bring to get to that clarity.

Paul Povolni 7:42

Right. Right. And that's that's where having somebody, you know, you can you can find a designer, you know, easily. You can find somebody that will do exactly what you say. You could even ask AI to do exactly what you say. But you, if if the designer is not asking the right questions, they're just gonna be saying, hey, you have unlimited revisions, you have unlimited changes, you have unlimited concepts. What that means is I don't have any strategy for you. I'm just gonna keep creating stuff until it sticks, until you like it. And just because you like it doesn't even mean that it's the right solution. Uh, you know, it's subjective at that point. It's I like it, it's cool for me, but you might not be the market. And so you have to be very careful with just hiring somebody that is willing to do unlimited changes, unlimited revisions, unlimited concepts, because their goal is I want to turn this around as quickly as possible. I'm not gonna give it a whole lot of time, I'm not gonna give it a whole lot of strategy, I'm not gonna ask you a lot of questions. And I hope that if I throw enough ideas, that subjectively you'll like it, and then I'll move on to the next person. And I think you have to be careful of that because that's a dangerous place to put yourself into as a business.

Dr. William Attaway 8:52

I, you know, as you say that, I'm thinking about uh times when I've encountered exactly that, where somebody's just throwing stuff as fast as they can. I'm like, this doesn't feel thought through at all. This doesn't feel strategic in the slightest. I know exactly what you're talking about, and I bet a lot of our listeners do too.

Paul Povolni 9:07

Right. It's it's yeah, it's design and it's creativity and it's solutions based on volume and hope. So, you know, it's volume and hope. That's good. I can produce enough stuff and I just hope that you'll like one of them and then I'll just move on. And I I don't think that's a a great way to to run a business or to to do anything is to just volume and hope and just hope that it sticks at some point.

Identity Gift Edge For Brand Clarity

Dr. William Attaway 9:35

So so when somebody comes to to Vapa Creative to you and they say, Hey, you know, we want some help here, and they don't have a lot of clarity, where do you start?

Paul Povolni 9:46

So I developed uh recently I spoke on this to a group of people. And after looking at the questions that I've asked, after looking at, you know, 34 years of doing this, I kind of narrowed it down to three foundational things that I kind of start with that are usually areas that a business might have it wrong. And these are, you know, three words, but these three words have a lot more that it's involved with, clarifying those three words. And the three words are identity, gift, and edge. And, you know, the first thing is identity. You know, who are you? Who do you serve? And starting there. And most people have that not haven't don't have that clear, they don't have that defined is, you know, who who are you? Who are you as a business? You know, what makes you special? Your identity is really core to everything. And and I think Craig Rochelle said once that when you know who you are, you know what you do. And so once you have that clarity on your identity, or as who are you, who actually are you as a brand? What is it that you do? That really makes a big difference in helping you understand what you do and what you don't do. And it can go, you know, pretty deep in looking at this, but it does give you a lot of clarity of here's, you know, this is what our business does, this is who we are, this is what we're about, this is what we do, and this is what we don't do. And, you know, in that clarity, you just start talking about things like values and you can talk about brand archetypes, you know, where you're you're talking about, you know, what kind of personality does your brand have? What are some of the values that your brand has? What are some of the things that are important to you as a brand? And all of that starts forming your identity. And then you start looking at who's your audience? Who actually are you serving? And when you if you don't have that defined, if it's just everybody, well, you can be a general brand. I mean, there are brands that make billions that do that. You know, Walmart is for everybody. Um, but they're also very specific brands that serve a very specific audience, and they also charge high dollar because they are so specific in who they serve. And so, you know, looking at who do you serve? Who, who is the audience that is your prime audience that you can serve best because of the second thing, which is the gift, which is what's your problem that you solve? What's the offer that you have? What is the thing that you offer people as a transformation for their business? And so, you know, once you know who you are, you know who you're serving, you know, how are you helping them? What transformation are you giving them as a business? What is the outcome that you are promising them and getting that defined? And for a lot of businesses, they they they don't know who they are. They, you know, I I I'm just kind of whatever, I'm a locksmith, I'm a you know, roofer, I'm a whatever. But what kind of a roofer? Like what makes you special? What makes you unique? What what are you what are the things that you stand for and stand against and things like that? Um, but then once you have that, how do you solve problems for your specific audience? What is the transformation that you promise them? And so a lot of people don't have that, even that offer clarified. Like, what is it actually that if I engage you as a business, I get as a result of that? What is the outcome I actually get? And surprisingly, some people don't have that clearly defined. Now, for some businesses, you know, it is clearly defined. You're a roofer, you get a new roof, right? You know, but uh for some businesses it's not um clearly defined. Like what is the actual outcome I can expect if I engage you as a business? And then the final thing is the edge is what makes you different? How are you different from every other business that is has the same, similar identity, maybe the same, maybe a little slightly different. They have a similar offer, but is there something about you that makes you different? Is it your beliefs? Is it your strategy? Is it your process? Is it your systems? Is it your outcome? Something about the outcome, the way you deliver the outcome. And so I think those three things, if you have one of those missing or not clear or don't have clarity on, then you might be spending a lot of time and effort and money in marketing things that don't work and frustrated because you're not getting the results that you want.

Dr. William Attaway 13:49

That's so well said. Uh, you know, listening to you talk about this and the ease with which you move through these different pieces reminds me of something I was I was actually telling my accountant the other day, right? I said, we he was he was telling me about some of the new tax changes and this and that. I said, I said, John, I'm I'm so glad you know this stuff. I'm so glad you know this stuff because I'm never gonna be an accountant and I'm never gonna understand the tax code. And that's why I engage you, because you know this stuff, you get it, you stay on top of it, and you are world-class at it. And I think I as I was listening to you describe this, I thought, my goodness, you know, so often for an entrepreneur, what you're describing can feel so hazy and muddled and unclear when we're thinking about our business. We know how to do what we do, but branding it, you know, that just that feels so like nebulous. Right, right. But you have a way of just cutting through that nebulous cloud and bringing clarity to it. And I I know this is why your clients engage you and stay with you because of that teacher's heart that I hear coming through.

Frameworks That Unlock Creative Thinking

Paul Povolni 14:58

Yeah, and and that's comes from those moments in my career where I didn't have clarity myself and I couldn't figure it out. And honestly, it was John Maxwell's books that started helping me in the way I talked, in the way I wrote, in the way I thought, in the way I came up with solutions. And so many times as a creative, um, I was straight out of college, you know, into a leadership role in a creative publishing colour, you know, multimillion dollar publishing company. And I was being asked questions I didn't have answers to. I was invited into meetings that I wasn't prepared for. And so it kind of set me on this journey of just figuring out the missing pieces. And I realized that, you know, it was frameworks. Uh, you know, I've developed quite a few frameworks around different things, and that was inspired by John Maxwell, is the way he explains things, the way he acronyms everything, you know, and how he how he summarizes things briefly, and it really triggered a way of thinking for me that has impacted me from the get-go is being able to explain stuff simply. And I can't remember who it was that said that if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

Dr. William Attaway 16:07

That's so well said. You know, Maxwell has mentored so many people from afar, including me. You know, I I re I first read his book going on My goodness, it's pushing 40 years ago now. You know, one of his books. That was early in his writing career. And just to continue to learn from him. And you and I were recently together at an event where he spoke. And what a gift to get to hear from a guy who, you know, five decades plus of leadership.

Paul Povolni 16:38

Right. Yeah, I actually got to meet him and I got to actually tell him that that how much he impacted me. And in the same way I re I think it was his, you know, uh irrefutable laws of leadership that was the first book that I read. But even before that, it was a teacher who introduced us to the Enjoy Club that it used to have.

Dr. William Attaway 16:56

Nice, the tape club. Oh, yeah.

Paul Povolni 16:57

The tape club, the tape club. And so that teacher was actually teaching leadership, and he would literally take his little handouts, his little fill-in-the-blanks uh sheets from the tape club, from the Enjoy Club, and we would go through those. And I was like, I've never thought this way. And for me, as a creative, you know, you've kind of wrestled with the creative side of things and the analytical and, you know, structured and systematic way of things. And for me, you know, it was a new way to start thinking that actually worked with the way my brain worked, is is systemizing, frameworking, putting things into ways that are memorable and explainable that really impacted me big time.

Dr. William Attaway 17:37

Well, and that's what you did with the head smack framework, right?

Paul Povolni 17:40

Right. Right. Yeah, and that's where the head smack framework came from. You know, as a young creative, uh, that was really making a pretty big impact on the company because they had they had had people there that had never left. Like they started working there and they'd been there, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, and they were just fine with what I call it'll do. And I think, you know, it'll do is a dangerous place to be in. And you know, it's it's a it's a a thing that I battle again. You know, I'd rather go with it'll wow than it'll do. Yeah. But there were people there that, you know, it'll do was kind of their framework. And when I went there, I said, you have the exact same tools as every single big company. You have the same tools as Time magazine, Newsweek magazine, Rolling Stone, you know, all of these big you have the exact same toolbox, except you you have the wrong mindset. So uh so as a new creative, I didn't know the rules. And so I was always pushing the boundaries. And so I'd start being invited into um into big meetings. And, you know, these were brainstorming meetings, and I'd enter into the meeting and they would have, you know, play-doh and crayons and whiteboards and all of these things and hats and things to think creatively. And so they'd they'd come into that meeting and say, okay, let's think creatively. And everybody would just kind of sit there and twiddle their thumbs and play on their palm pilots and blackberries and whatever. And, you know, they didn't really have a way to think creatively to prompt creative thinking. And so for me, I saw that as a challenge. Like, how do I help them? Next time I'm invited to this meeting, how do I help them? And so that's kind of where the head smack framework was born is I wanted to help people think creatively, even if they weren't creative. And, you know, headsmack is just an acronym of nine words, you know, that kind of help people think creatively and they're just catalysts to start you thinking in a creative way. And so I've been using that, you know, anytime I teach a workshop, anytime I go into a business that needs creative thinking, I take them the headsmack framework and we're able to think creatively pretty quickly. And people are amazed by some of the ideas that they come up with. I love that.

Dr. William Attaway 19:50

And again, there's the heart of the teacher, right? Wanting to make this something that is accessible and that it's helpful to the people that you're working with. And you still do this today.

Paul Povolni 20:00

I still do I do it, I I can't help it now. You know, anytime I see a problem, anytime I see a thing that needs to be resolved, I try and build a framework around it. I try and find the patterns, I try and find the things that are the same, things that are different, things that are repetitive, you know, things that are just patterns, and I try and figure out, okay, I think there's I think there's a framework for this. And that comes, of course, from John Maxwell. There you go. Build a framework around it. And so I have, you know, multiple frameworks that I use for different kinds of things that just help people solve different kinds of problems. And I put one point I'll put them all in the book, but that's just, you know, that's just the way I think now is I think in how do how do I make this into something that's easy to explain, easy to use, that I can give to somebody or I can explain to somebody and it's going to help them get unstuck.

Dr. William Attaway 20:53

So, you know, I'm thinking about your journey. And, you know, you have had so many different experiences in different things, different places, geographically, but also, you know, different types of environments of companies that you've worked with. You know, it it strikes me that, you know, more is demanded of you today than was, you know, three, five, ten years ago. And that same thing's gonna be true three, five, ten years from now. Right. So how do you stay on top of your game? Like how do you level up with the new leadership skills that your clients are gonna need you to have and your team are gonna need you to have in the days to come?

Paul Povolni 21:28

Well,

Grow Your Genius And Multiply Impact

Paul Povolni 21:29

as a creative, for me, um I I see it as being a sponge. I just absorb, I absorb content, I absorb inspiration. And then when it comes time to problem solve, it's like I squeeze that sponge and hopefully something original comes out. And I think with the world, the way it's changing, I think it's good to be aware of everything that's going on, even if you can't become an expert in everything that's going on. Because I think for a lot of us, you know, if we get if we study really Really, really hard at something, we can get pretty average at it. But then there are other things that we can be really good at. You know, if we commit some time to, we can be really good at and really amazing at and really genius at. And I think sometimes we frustrate ourselves by spending a lot of time on the things that if we tried really, really, really hard at, we'd get average at. And we don't spend time on the areas of genius that we've been gifted with. And so I've always understood that, okay, I I know that if I tried really hard, I'd get average at that. So I'll either I'll delegate that or outsource that, or put an expert on that that's really good at that, and I'll focus on my areas of genius. And so for me, you know, staying on top of creative things, staying on top of creative thinking, and staying on top of strategy, on top of leadership, uh, those are the things that I focus on. And I do that by reading podcasts, uh, videos, uh, books, you know, things like that, is just staying on top of the things that I feel would grow my genius as opposed to grow my average. I love that phrase. Grow my genius instead of grow my average.

Dr. William Attaway 23:05

That's brilliant. So what do you when you think about VAPA Creative, like what is one thing that you want most in the years to come?

Paul Povolni 23:16

I think what I want most is to be able to figure out a way to multiply myself and not be the sole person that does everything. And, you know, I've I've had an agency in the past, I've had employees, I've had office space, uh really cool office space, a kind of office space that you want as a graphic agency with exposed brickwork, you know, and rafters and all of that stuff. You know, but you know, right now I'm soloing and and for me, for VAPA Creative, I love to speak more, be able to do one-to-many as opposed to one-to-one. And so that's kind of what I'm exploring is what that looks like for my business to be able to speak more. I've I've got books that inside me that I feel I want to write. Um, you know, I want to get those out there. Of course, the podcast that I do is is a great adventure. I enjoy doing that. But just figuring out ways to take, you know, what I do and what I've learned over the last 34 years and being one-to-many as opposed to one-to-one. That's awesome.

Dr. William Attaway 24:12

Yeah, you know, it illustrates one of the characteristics I think of a catalytic leader in that you're not just going to be a reservoir of everything you've learned and all of your experiences, but you're going to become a conduit of it, sharing it with the people around you, understanding that what you've learned is not just for you, but also for the benefit of those around you. I love the heart behind that.

Paul Povolni 24:32

Yeah, a long time ago, even when it comes to finances, but I think even for giftings, is, you know, I I of course everything for me is is summarizing a statement uh inspired by John Maxwell again, but is to be a conduit and not a container. And that's kind of been my heart is, you know, I don't want to be a container, I want to be a conduit, whether, you know, I'm blessed in some way, whether I've got giftings in some way, whether I've got experience in some way, is not to just keep it, you know, shut in and just me and and nobody else, but finding a way to conduit that out to people beyond myself.

Dr. William Attaway 25:08

That's good. You read widely. Is there a book that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening, one that's made a really big difference in your journey?

Paul Povolni 25:17

I would say anything John Maxwell. I think I think anything John Maxwell is is gonna affect a leader in a way that is significant. He just has a way of taking principles and making them very applicable, making them very understandable. And so I would pretty much pick up any John Maxwell book. He's got them kind of themed around topics as well. And so wherever you are struggling as a leader, or whether you feel you want to grow as a leader, um, I think he has books on a lot of topics that can help. He's got team building books, he's got on personal leadership, he's got books on failure. I know one of his latest books is on failure. That's right. And that's right, you know, that's a big topic. That's a tough topic. I know a lot of people go through that. And so, you know, if you've faced that or if you've gone through that, he's got books on that as well. Love it.

Dr. William Attaway 26:05

Last question I've got for you, Paul, is you know, as people look at you from the outside, they're looking at your highlight reel. You know, and so often we can look at somebody's highlight reel and think, man, Paul never struggles like I struggle. He's never had to deal with the challenges that I have to deal with. His journey's just been up and to the right. And we know that's not true. That's not true of any entrepreneur, right? But in line of that thinking, if I had the ability to snap my fingers right now and solve one problem in your business, what would you want that problem to be?

Paul Povolni 26:39

On how to multiply. You know, not not just addition, not just, you know, adding one thing at a time, but figuring out how to multiply, how to take what I'm doing and to reach a bigger audience. And, you know, I'm trying to do that, of course, with the podcast. You know, I want to do that with book writing, you know, I'm doing that with speaking. It's just that's that's the one thing is as I want to multiply. I want to, you know, I turned 57 a few weeks ago. You know, I'm I'm at that point, you know, where I'm wanting to pour out. You know, I think it was the Apostle Paul that talked about pouring out. Um he's ready to be poured out, and I'm kind of at that stage that I just want to pour out. I just I don't want to be left holding a lot of stuff. You know, I I don't want a lot of stuff to be still inside of me. And that was one of the reasons I started the podcast is I want to I want to be able to pour out what I know, talk to interesting people, share, you know, my knowledge, you know, on the podcast as well. But I I just don't want to leave full, I want to leave empty. And so is finding a way to empty myself. That's kind of what what my goal is, you know, for the next season is finding ways to empty myself. So good.

Dr. William Attaway 27:52

Well, I've always enjoy it when we talk, and the the conversations that we have had, I've walked away from thinking, my goodness, I really want to talk to that guy more. And this has been no exception to that. I can talk to you for another hour. It was an honor to be on your show, and I'm so grateful that you agreed to be on ours. Well, thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I'm glad. I I know people and listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and learn more about what you're doing and how they can engage you. But what's the best way for them to do that?

Paul Povolni 28:22

Just VAPA, V O P P A. Um, I'm Vapa on most places. Vapa.com is my website. And so that's just VOPPA.com. And on most social platforms, I'm Vapa, unless somebody else got it, which is rare. Uh then it might be the VAPA or something like that. But in if you just go to VAPA, uh, you'll find me. Excellent. We'll have that link in the show notes. Thank you so much. Paul, thank you. Well, thank you. This has been a great