Catalytic Leadership

The Shift That Finally Created Sustainable Agency Growth

• Dr. William Attaway • Season 4 • Episode 14

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Scaling isn’t the same as growing, and no one knows that better than Rachel Allen. For 17 years, she’s run Bolt from the Blue Copywriting, serving clients in 21 countries. But when she built and scaled an agency because she thought she “should,” the result was burnout, frustration, and misalignment.

In this episode, Rachel and I unpack the mindset and structural shifts that lead to sustainable agency growth: growth that fits your wiring, not the industry’s expectations. We talk about why “bigger” isn’t always better, how to lead from clarity instead of comparison, and why human-centered marketing still wins in an AI-driven world.

If you’ve felt the pressure to scale, but sense there’s a smarter, saner way forward, this conversation will help you realign your systems, your strategy, and your definition of success.



Books Mentioned

  • Indirect Work by Carol Sanford


Connect with Rachel Allen at boltfromthebluecopywriting.com or on LinkedIn. You can also reach her directly at hello@boltfromthebluecopywriting.com — yes, by email, just like the good old days.


Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.

Connect with Dr. William Attaway:

Dr. William Attaway:

I'm so excited today to have Rachel Allen on the podcast. Rachel is a fast thinking, deeply nerdy marketer with broad ranging experience in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors. She's written for some of the biggest and smallest names in business and excels at marketing that's equal parts data-driven and human-centered. Having run a marketing business for 17 years with clients in over 21 countries, Rachel's worked with some of the top names in entrepreneurship, as well as influencers, brick and mortar businesses, and nonprofits around the world. Her work has contributed directly to high ROI launches, leaps in audience engagement, industry awards, relationships with top venture capital firms, and national level honors. Rachel, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Rachel Allen:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Dr. William Attaway:

I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Rachel Allen:

Me too.

Intro:

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author, and leadership and executive coach, Dr. William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway:

I would love to start with you sharing some of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

Rachel Allen:

Gosh, I mean, so I fell into copywriting completely backwards. I had no idea what it was until the day I started doing it because I wanted to be a journalist. And that's what I'd gone to school for and, you know, done the the track, all the extraherculars, interned it in PR, all the things. And then I graduated in 2008. And of course, no one's hiring journalists. It's like, well, okay. So um I sent out, you know, 200 resumes. I got no responses. And the only job I could get was working uh in the old Navy warehouse. I was unpacking boxes on the 5 a.m. ship.

Dr. William Attaway:

My goodness.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah. And even with that, they were like, I don't know, like, it's a little iffy. I don't know if we we have too many liberal arts majors already in here. Yeah, ouch. Yeah. Yeah. So we were all in there and I stuck it out for about six months, but you know, that wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. And so in my 22-year-old brain, I was like, you know, I wonder what the furthest place away from Tennessee is. And turns out it's Hong Kong. So I bought a plane ticket and moved there. Yeah, totally the 22-year-old brain's like, yeah, absolutely. Uh, did not get a work visa, like had no plan, no nothing. And so I just uh landed there and had to make rent. And I'm so like, I'm Googling like how to make money online, you know. Yeah. And I found this this gig, which I was like, sure was a scam because it was saying, you know, we'll hire we'll pay you $3.25 if you will write us 600 words about this thing that we sell. And I was like, okay, sure, sure you'll pay me that. But, you know, I I was desperate and I decided to try it out. And uh shockingly enough, they did actually pay me. It was a legit thing. And I I was so because I was like, I cannot believe somebody would pay me to do something that is so fun for me and so easy. And so that's how I got started in the business. And I think, you know, I said like in a bunch of different places, I think starting a business is really the personal development journey. Nobody realizes they're on until you're in the middle of it. And I think that's had such an impact on my development as a leader.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, when somebody starts down this road, you know, they begin to find some success. And then you have to hire people to help you with fulfillment to get a team, whether they're contractors or employees or however you do that, and then all of a sudden you're the leader.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

Which is you didn't really sign up for that.

Rachel Allen:

Very much no. So how did you navigate that? Um, pretty badly for the first couple years. Uh so I I decided after I had done this whole thing for I don't know, five, ten years or something, I was like, you know what? I should build an agency because that's what people in this industry do. And I didn't really think about whether I actually wanted that or not, or whether that made sense for me, or whether I was even suited to run one. But like, it's like you gotta scale, that's what you do. So I um started hiring people and with mixed success, mixed results, I guess I would say, uh largely down to I just it would have never occurred to me that I needed to like speak to these people on a daily basis because I didn't, you know, ever work for anybody else. I've never had another job in my adult life. And so I would just send the assignments out and I would expect people to get them done. And sometimes they do them and sometimes they wouldn't. And then I would talk to them once a year, right around Christmas, and be like, hey, is this good for you? Sounds great. Let's keep going. That's great. I love that. Never would it have occurred to me because I'm like, I don't want to talk to anybody else. Like, why do we need to talk to each other?

Dr. William Attaway:

That may be one of my favorite stories now. I love that.

Rachel Allen:

That's so good. It's the once-a-year management style. That's right.

Dr. William Attaway:

The one I mean, I've never heard that before. You just coined it. So well done, Rachel.

Rachel Allen:

That's what you're doing. My book and seminars will be coming out shortly. That's right.

Dr. William Attaway:

And that worked really well. I can imagine.

Rachel Allen:

That's super great.

Dr. William Attaway:

My goodness. Oh, that's that's awesome. So, so what caused you to change that?

Rachel Allen:

So I uh I realized I was really frustrated and resentful of what I was doing, and I had never felt like this before. And so I started looking at that and I wanted to look at myself because even though I was very unprepared to manage a team, like I was pretty sure I was the problem. You know, I was like, I'm not gonna just say that, like, oh, I just hired bad people, it's their fault. I'm sure like I am the common factor here. It must be something to do with me. So I started reading books about management and about team building. I enrolled in a leadership program, a four-year program. And throughout that, I actually realized that uh I didn't want to lead a team. So I ended up descaling, switching over to a boutique one-to-one model. And that actually works a lot better for me because I get to lead, you know, in an industry, but I don't have to lead a team when I don't want to. You know, and I can go into other people's businesses and lead their teams, and I actually really enjoy that. I'm shockingly much better at it than I was in my own business. But with my own day-to-day, I was like, actually, you know, that wasn't the agency was never my goal to begin with. And so of course it didn't go all that great because I didn't really want that.

Dr. William Attaway:

This story is so important, and I want to emphasize this before we go any farther, because what you are illustrating is a truth that there is not a one size fits all when it comes to building a business or even building an agency. You know, so often people look at the highlight reels of other people that they deem more successful, and they're like, oh, I have to do what they did the way they did it. I have to hire people, scale, grow, build, more people, more people, have more, manage more people. That is a way to do it. But there are multiple ways to do this. And I love what you're illustrating here, that you found what is a fit for you, for how you're wired. And you were comfortable enough with who you are and how you are wired not to feel the pressure to be like the other people that you see around you.

Rachel Allen:

Thank you. It was a hard one lesson. It took about three years to really undo the damage that I had done to my business by chasing a dream that wasn't mine. And I'm honestly just really coming out of it in this last year or so.

Dr. William Attaway:

Wow. Yeah. Well, I just I applaud that. I encourage you in that. Like that's healthy. And I think that that's really a much better fit. The expectations we place on ourselves so often are unhealthy, particularly when we're comparing ourselves to other people and saying, well, I should be more like, well, I should do it like according to who.

Rachel Allen:

Right.

Dr. William Attaway:

According to who. Be you. Operate the way you're wired and designed. Don't don't feel like you have to be somebody else. There's already one of them. We don't need two.

Rachel Allen:

Exactly. Oh, I love that. Yeah. One of my very good friends says it takes all of us as we are. And I always think back to that. It's like, yeah, it's I need to show up as me, and that's how I can lead and change and influence and grow the world I want to live in.

Dr. William Attaway:

And add the most value to the clients that you serve. I think Exactly. So when it comes to marketing, there's a whole lot of this is a very fast-changing field, you know, and in agency world right now. I mean, so many trends, so many strategies people are looking at and evaluating and employing. What trends are you seeing right now?

Rachel Allen:

So I'm seeing, well, I think we're in the middle of one of our periodic apocalypses in the industry. Uh, we do these about every four years or so. Right now, every time that happens, everybody's like, oh, pack it up. We're done. No more money on the internet. It's over.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's good. That's about every four years. I like that.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah. No, we go through these like, and now I can finally see it. You know, it took me about three apocalypses to get it down. And I was like, wait, I've done this before. You know how this goes.

Dr. William Attaway:

Feels familiar.

Rachel Allen:

Exactly. So I think we're in the middle of one of those, and people always make a lot of money off of other people thinking that it's the end times, right? It's like, oh, it's all over, you know, but if you buy my course, then you can survive. So there's a lot of that. Another thing I'm seeing actually, which I find very heartening, is a swing back to analog and like one-to-one relationships, which I think is in response to AI. And I think people feel overwhelmed and frightened of that. And so what they're leaning towards is like, can you send me something in the mail? Can I get something to hold in my hands?

Dr. William Attaway:

Novel.

Rachel Allen:

Right? I know. I can't believe it.

Dr. William Attaway:

So novel, but but so personal.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

I think the humanization element is going to become more and more important as we automate so much of what we do.

Rachel Allen:

Absolutely. And I mean, that was uh, I think I saw Dan Holt on LinkedIn the other day posted something like 23 marketing tactics that are working this year. And the first one was things that will not scale. Because, you know, and that's why like I'll write handwritten postcards to my clients, or I have another client of mine who sends flowers to every client on their birthday. And it's like, yeah, that's so it's so human, it's so lovely, and it's so much different than here's my seven email nurture sequence with a downloadable PDF.

Dr. William Attaway:

Gee, I've I've never seen that before.

Rachel Allen:

I know.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, people are people are listening to this show. A lot of them are in the agency world, and a lot of them are business owners, you know, and for most business owners that I talk to, marketing is intimidating. It's it's something that they don't fully understand. And it can feel like they're just sinking money into this black hole and they're hoping there's going to be an ROI, but nobody can guarantee. And so there's there's a lot of fear and trepidation around it. When you're talking to business owners, what advice do you give them as they're thinking about marketing?

Rachel Allen:

Well, the first thing I always do is I try to put their mind at ease by saying, as scared as you are of talking to me, that's how scared I always am when calling an accountant or someone who does something with like numbers. I'm I always feel like I'm messing it up. I always think I'm doing it wrong, and I'm usually not, but I just I feel like I'm bad at it. And so that can kind of ease their minds of like, hey, you're probably not doing it wrong, but you for whatever reason feel like you're bad at it, and that's okay because I'm really good at it and I can help you with it, and like I'm not gonna judge you about it. So I do that reframe, and then I encourage them to think about what their strategic goals in their business actually are and approach their marketing from that perspective, as opposed to what do the marketing gurus say you should do this year, or what's on trend, or what's, you know, what is the most insecure inside part of you say. It's like, no, what do you want? What are you gonna do to make that happen? And how are we gonna know if it's working?

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that. And I love the non-scalability of what you just described.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah, I'm like, I mean, I can build you all sorts of funnels and beautiful things. And if it's not a fit for you, it's not gonna work, you know. Ask me how I know. Right.

Dr. William Attaway:

So it sounds like you listen as you're talking to your clients or prospective clients.

Rachel Allen:

I do. I um I do I never work with anyone that I haven't spoken to personally for at least like 20, 30 minutes just to get the vibe off of them and also to see if, you know, if we're a fit, because it's a marketing's personal, you know, it has to sound like you. It needs to feel like you if it's gonna work. And if for whatever reason, I can't, uh I don't, I don't feel like I wanna, it's gonna sound so woo-woo, be in that energy, but really it's like I just don't want to like hang out with that person. I'm not gonna be able to do convincing marketing for them.

Dr. William Attaway:

Good. And I think I think that's an element too that our listeners can really benefit from listening to the people that you want to work with or potential potential clients or the clients that you have. If you don't listen, listening is a leader superpower. And in my experience, it's a less utilized one than I believe it should be. Absolutely. That's when you hear the heart. And that's when you can bring the best of you to bear for what they're doing. I love what you said too about, you know, the that's how you feel talking to an accountant. We think of accountants as professionals, right? We think of attorneys as professionals, we think of doctors as professionals. But I see too many business owners, particularly in the marketing space, not positioning themselves as that same type of professional. Reality is you know how to do things that I don't know how to do as a business owner. And so when I come to you, I want to leverage that expertise and what you have spent your profession learning. Why would I try to second guess you? I don't try to second guess my attorney. I mean, right? I don't try to second guess my accountant. At least I hope I don't, my accountant, you know. The same thing should be true for other professionals that we deal with, but too many people are not positioning themselves like that. So when you're talking to people, how do you do that? How do you position yourself as that person of expertise who's got 17 years of track doing this now? You know a little bit about it, you know?

Rachel Allen:

Yeah. Uh I mean, I think the first thing is it's this is more of an internal thing, but I accept the expertise for myself. You know, I don't go into conversations thinking like, maybe this is the one that I screw up, or, you know, like I don't I've done a lot of personal development work and a lot of leadership development work within myself to be like, look, I have a clear vision for where I'm going with my work and my career. And that's what this is in service of. And so my own personal stuff kind of becomes irrelevant, you know, in the in the light of the mission. So I get my head on straight. And then I go in and I really just try to have a deep sense of empathy for where they are. Because as you said, listening to them and being able to really hear them on like a deep level is something that I don't think most people experience when they're talking to a service professional, because most people have like the box or the funnel or the process or whatever. And I don't. All my work is individual. I design packages for everybody I work with. And I'm like, yeah, because I the level at which I am working, your problems do not fit in a box. You've if you're coming to me, you have something more complex. And I know that you're really smart because you've already run a business. You're running this great, successful business. And so if you can't solve this problem, it's a it's a weird one. And so, like the level at which I approach the problems, I think also shows people like, yeah, I'm serious about this. You're not going to get the typical, you know, tick the 10 boxes and then, oh, look, you've got marketing thing with me. It's like, no, we're going to think about it, we're going to solve some really weird problems, and we're going to grow some relationships.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that. You know, the the reality is how you deal with people begins with how you deal with yourself. And I love that you've spent the time doing the work to make sure that you're bringing the healthiest mindset and the healthiest perspective as a leader that you can to your clients. And again, that's something I hope our listeners are grabbing onto because this is work that you can do no matter where you are. If you struggle with things like imposter syndrome, if you struggle with shiny object syndrome, where you're just chasing every new thing, that reflects something going on inside of you. And you got to deal with that. Because if you don't, you're going to carry it into every conversation you have, every relationship that you have with clients or prospective clients. I love that you brought that out, Rachel.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah. Well, I mean, people can feel it. And something, so I teach a uh workshop about how to write bios, and this often comes up because people have done really amazing things, but they feel weird talking about them and they feel like they're not allowed to really own them. And so one thing that I tell them, which is it's actually a phrase from libel law, is just the truth is an absolute defense. So if you did it, you can talk about it. And you don't have to make it some sort of like giant thing, like, oh, I'm the most amazing person in the whole world who's done all this thing. But equally, it doesn't do anybody any favors if you say something and then immediately try to back it down. It just makes us feel uncomfortable. So it's like, yeah, just say the thing and let it stand for yourself and for your clients.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, you you often say that that 99% of marketing advice that people get sets them up to fail. Why do you say that?

Rachel Allen:

Uh well, because I've seen it fail, but because I um I've done a lot of analysis, sort of like looking back on projects I've done, projects other people have done, and trying to figure out why they worked and why they didn't. And what I realized is for a sale to happen, you have to have four factors all together. And that's you have to have the right thing in front of the right person at the right time and in the right way. And most of those factors you have no control over. But all the marketing advice is predicated as though you had control over all four of those factors. And so it's like, well, you can't control the timing at which someone sees your post, but that means you probably didn't do it right and there's something wrong with you, and you should just be in more places. I'm like, that's just cruel. No one can be everywhere. Well said. Yeah. I can't control time. I would love to. Be amazing, wouldn't it? Right?

Dr. William Attaway:

No, that's really good. I mean, focusing on what you can control and understanding that there are elements that you can't. I think that's realistic.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah, and I think something that so many people, I've seen so many people just be heartbroken over and and leave business over is this refusal to acknowledge that sometimes just sheer luck plays into this stuff. Like sometimes of course hard work matters, of course doing your best matters, craftsmanship matters, but sometimes you just hit something just right and for whatever reason it takes off, and there's no explanation other than you were there at the right time in the right place and it worked.

Dr. William Attaway:

Hmm. That's good. I like that. You know, speaking of of things that have circled around a few times, and we seem to feel a sense of deja vu with this one. One thing we're hearing a lot in the field is that email marketing, yeah, it's over. It's dead. No more need for that. I mean, I've watched that come through a couple of times through the station, right? And now we're now we're hearing it again. It's something that you talk about. Do you think that's true?

Rachel Allen:

I mean, if it's dead, I've got a real healthy looking zombie. So I mean, it's it's working great for me. That's excellent.

Dr. William Attaway:

Perhaps we're not doing it right.

Rachel Allen:

Or, you know, I think you know, the whole like the standard sign up for my list and get this free PDF, which no one wants and no one reads. And then I'm gonna email you every single week with uh what are people, analysis insights and helpful tips. I do not want any of those things. Nothing. Do not give me more analysis. If I want analysis, I will go and find it. But some things that's great. Well, some things that I am finding are working well though, is just it's you it's stepping away from, I guess, traditional like email marketing and then using the medium of email to communicate in some really interesting ways. So one of my clients, she never emails anything but a question. She emails one really good question to all of her clients on a Thursday. And it like it puts you in your CEO mind space and you have to like really think about it. And so that's what she's like, look, at the level you're working on, you don't need answers. You have answers. You need somebody who can challenge you enough to be like, you know, I never thought about that. Shoot, what should I do? And like, I have another client or another friend who's doing this brilliant marketing campaign, which is somehow part scavenger hunt murder mystery, but via email. And people are going crazy for it. And so people aren't tired of email marketing, they're just tired of being treated badly.

Dr. William Attaway:

Man, I want to think about that. That is that is really good, Rachel. I I wow. And again, I'm I and Jess said, you know, you know, the rest of us are doing it wrong. But maybe we are.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah. I mean, I think I think that things are working right now are in any kind of marketing, are people stretching the bounds of what they previously thought a platform or a medium could do? So it's like, yeah, how can you get really weird with your LinkedIn posts? What can we do via email? How can we use these tools that have we've been taught to see as doing one thing and break all those rules and use them in a totally different way?

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, I think about E.E. Cummings. Oddly when you say that, you know, I I love to read E.E. Cummings because he breaks so many rules.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

And and but you have to know the rules in order to know how to break them well. And I think that's what he was a master of.

Rachel Allen:

Well, absolutely.

Dr. William Attaway:

It sounds a little bit like what you're talking about when it comes to email marketing and other types.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah, because I mean, both of these people can absolutely bang out a seven email nurture campaign. They can do the newsletter thing, they can do whatever. But it's just like they know that they don't want those things in their inbox. They don't read them. And so now they're thinking about what what would I actually voluntarily read? What would I go into my inbox for? Wow. That's a great question.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, thinking about you as a business owner, you know, you you have to lead your clients and your business at a higher level today than you did five years ago. And that same thing is gonna be true five years from now. What are you doing to stay on top of your game? How do you level up your leadership skills so that they're gonna be what your clients and your business need them to be in the years to come?

Rachel Allen:

I love that question. I think the first thing I read all the time, and whether that's leadership books, business books, but also fiction and all sorts of crazy nonfiction, I'm right now just head down in a book about the language of cults. So things that you would never think, yeah, it's really weird. Things you would never think would tie together, but I think it all sort of comes into synthesis, and then I'm able to use that and develop in my leadership. But also I put myself in deliberately challenging situations where I know that I'm probably gonna fail and I'm not gonna do well, and it's things that I'm not as naturally good at because I learn things about myself in seeing how I react to that failure and how I react to the new situation, and I can always make a different decision next time.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's really good. That continual learning posture is what I hear running through that whole thing. You know, as you read, as you are constantly taking in new information, I'm curious, is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you'd love to recommend?

Rachel Allen:

Oh gosh. Oh, there's so many. I think uh the one I'll go with is Indirect Work by Carol Sanford. It's a teeny little book, very uh very short, but she uh let me think about how I want to describe it. It's such a it's such a unique book. I'm I'm not even sure how to go into it, but it's a business book, uh, it's about leadership, and she takes the metaphor of most of us think about affecting change in the in a direct A to B situation, right? So she uses the metaphor of a pool table. If I hit the ball, that hits the other ball, and then I get what I want. And she's like, Yeah, but what if you move the whole table? Like, how can you in your work move the entire table, which is so much more effective? So it's just a completely different dimension of working.

Dr. William Attaway:

I've not heard of this book, but now you have intrigued me. I'll be picking that one. That's really interesting. Thank you. Excellent. Rachel, you know, uh people people look at you and they see somebody who is like incredibly successful with what she's chosen to do, with the business that she's built over 17 years. And I think that the natural response sometimes is to say, oh, wow, what amazing success. Oh, Rachel has never struggled like I struggled. She's never dealt with the problems that I deal with. Because they're looking at your highlight reel. Sure. Right. And that's so easy for us to all fall into. We know the fallacy of that. But in that spirit, I want to ask you a question. If I had the ability to snap my fingers and solve one problem right now in your business, what would you want that problem to be?

Rachel Allen:

So the flip answer is I would like to be able to time travel and do more things. But I think the real answer is I think about how I want to phrase this. I think the real answer is I would love to only do the things that truly matter. And I find myself caught up in smaller things, trivia, you know, email admin, all that kind of stuff. And I want to clone myself so that somebody else can do it to the level that I require. Because I've never ever seen I've never found that in another person that I've worked with yet.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's that's fantastic. Now I had uh uh had a mentor tell me once that if somebody else can do something 80% as well as you can, that you should let them do it. As a as a leader, as an owner, it's you should absolutely hand it off. And I really pushed back hard on that.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

And I said, 80%, are you joking? That's a C. Like, why would I let somebody do C work on my team? Like, come on, give me a break. Like, no, that's not what we want to do for our clients. Wow. And and he he said, he said, that's where they start. And by the way, you started well below that. And you grew to where you are now. Why would you not, as their leader, give them the same opportunity and equip and empower them to grow only with you helping to guide the journey? And I I've I've never forgotten that. I thought, wow, that's so, so, so good.

Rachel Allen:

Feel that like in my chest. I'm not gonna forget that ever either. Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

It it landed so hard and it really has challenged me ever since. I mean, that was decades ago. And it has challenged me ever since to to rethink how I do that and how I look at that, the development of other people and what I accept, because my standards, like yours, are pretty high. 80%'s not gonna cut it.

Rachel Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway:

But that's where they start. And I just, you know, I I think that's important. It's helpful for me to reiterate that sometimes and to remind myself of that. And I hope our listeners are are hearing that as well, because I think so often, particularly as high capacity, high performance leaders, we have very high expectations of ourselves and of other people. And that's good. That's how we got to where we are. But when it comes to mentoring and leading, it's very, very important to right size those expectations for the growth journey of other people. Just came to mind as you said that.

Rachel Allen:

I love that. I love I feel like I'm getting coached. This is wonderful. I'm like, yeah, tell me my tell me how to solve my problems.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's why we help each other. That's uh I have learned so much today in this conversation. And I'm so grateful for your transparency and your generosity in sharing from some of what you've learned on your journey so far. I know our listeners are gonna want to continue to learn from you and learn more about what you're doing. What is the best way for them to do that?

Rachel Allen:

They can find me at bolt from the blue copywriting.com. They can also connect with me on LinkedIn, or they can email me like it is the ancient times at hello at bolt from the blue copywriting.com, and I will email them back.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love it. We will have those links in the show notes. Rachel, thank you truly for today, for this conversation and for your generosity.

Rachel Allen:

Thank you so much. I've so enjoyed this. Yeah. Wow, you ask an amazing question.

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