Catalytic Leadership
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Catalytic Leadership
Why Saying Yes to Everyone Blocks You From Scaling Your Agency
Scaling your agency doesn’t happen by saying “yes” to every client that comes your way. In fact, that’s exactly what can keep you stuck in bottlenecks, overwork, and stalled growth.
In this episode, I’m joined by Wes Towers, founder of Uplift 360, where he helps construction companies grow through smarter websites and SEO. Wes shares his journey of building from the ground up, the costly lessons of chasing the wrong projects, and the pivotal decision to niche his company into construction and trades.
We talk about what it really takes to scale your agency in today’s environment: choosing the right clients, building trust and credibility, designing systems that sustain growth, and navigating the disruption of AI in SEO. If you’ve ever wrestled with burnout, bottlenecks, or the fear of turning down business, Wes’s story will help you see a different path forward.
Books Mentioned
- The E-Myth by Michael E. Gerber
You can connect with Wes and learn more about his work at uplift360.com.au. You’ll also find his LinkedIn link there to connect with him directly.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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I'm excited today to have Wes Towers on the podcast. Wes is the founder of Uplift360, where he helps construction companies grow through smarter websites and SEO. He's learned the hard way, building his own business from the ground up, making mistakes, getting his hands dirty, and now he helps others avoid the same painful lessons. Wes, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks, william, fantastic to be here. I've been looking forward to this conversation. This is going to be fun.
Wes Towers:Yeah, absolutely Got a few interesting things to talk through. It's an interesting time in the world right now for business and certainly my industry.
Intro:So welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway:Well, I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners. Wes particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?
Wes Towers:I started. Well, I started graphic design multimedia in. Well, I was at high school in the 90s and so web design development wasn't really a thing back then. But I had a creative um, uh liking, so, uh, I pursued that, went to uni, got my first job in a Sydney company in the year 2000, in a marketing uh company, and they'd never designed a website before. So, uh, things have changed. They were an award-winning marketing company I've actually found them. They were in the award book and I called them because they were doing wonderful work. Got a job there and a few months into the job as a designer, they won a website design to do and they said well, you're the young guy, you're just fresh out of uni, you better design us a website. So I had no idea how to go about it, but they were. They were gracious in giving me plenty of time to fulfill that project and from there I became their web guy.
Wes Towers:And but I always had a passion for business in itself, so it was something that I always wanted to pursue. So whilst working in the business their business I was always watching and trying to understand okay, how does all this work behind the scenes? And studying their business. And they sold that bill. They got bought out. So I got to watch that whole process of going through the merger and going to the new company and watching as a young guy, watching the different leadership styles really as a young guy, watching the different leadership styles really.
Wes Towers:So I guess all of us model ourselves on what we've seen successful in others, and so a lot of. Because I didn't study business, I didn't study leadership, I studied graphic design, multimedia, at uni. So I guess my leadership style is a hybrid of what I observed and what I liked in others, but also just my own personality. I think you lead with your own strengths. So I'm a people person, so I enjoy people, I like spending time with all diverse types of people. So my leadership style, I guess you would say, is relational. That's how I go about life.
Dr. William Attaway:I love that and I think it really keys into something we talk about a lot on the show, which is that true catalytic leadership is leadership that sees people as individual human beings, not just as cogs in the machine. It is relational and that's a key component if you really want to make a difference as a leader.
Wes Towers:Yeah, and just the nuance of different people and the way they operate, and just to value and appreciate different types. I think, particularly now with AI, I mean we're going to have AI as a superhuman, effectively the best of everybody collated into one entity eventually. But our human frailty is so appealing and it's got its own beauty, I think, and if we don't lose that through this process, I think we'll achieve a lot.
Dr. William Attaway:One of the things that you try to do at Uplift360 is help construction companies to stand out. Why do you think that is such a struggle?
Wes Towers:Yeah, so I don't know about everywhere in the world, but we had a real boom time so everybody in the construction game was doing incredibly well and there was more work than anyone could handle and really profitable and all those sorts of things. So no one really had to work hard to get work. In fact, that could be picky. Things have changed somewhat Whilst here in Australia there's some construction work and a lot of government-related jobs, but there's other niches in the construction industries that need to fight a little bit harder to get the work through the doors and to remain profitable. So in those instances they've had to start thinking about who they are as brands, what types of work they want to market and how they communicate um to them, to the marketplace, to attract the to the right, right kind of jobs, um. So, yeah, it's a changing. It's a changing landscape and I suppose some of those learnings that I've learned my own in my own way through through niching my own business.
Wes Towers:So I didn't start out. I didn't start out. Just niching is as, uh, construction based websites, construction trades, tradies, as we call them here in australia. Don't know if you call them that. They're contractors and those sorts of people. I started out in graphic design more broadly and then moved to websites and then moved even niched into the industries that I serve, being construction and trade and I think that's the aspects of what I learned through that process are helpful for the construction companies now in just being able to identify who their ideal clients are so they can target them specifically, because it's so noisy out there and people are so rushed for time. So if you're trying to communicate too broadly, people just miss your message. But if you're really niched in and specific on who your ideal client is, we go for them and they'll be attracted because your messaging will be spot on precisely for them.
Dr. William Attaway:So that's how it kind of works Well, and I think that's one of the reasons I talk all the time with agency owners about the importance of niching down, because then you can dial in the messaging. You know you can be for them.
Dr. William Attaway:I mean, as another guest on the podcast, corey Quinn, said not long ago, you know if you're for everybody, you're really for nobody you know, because your messaging is not going to resonate and it sounds like you have dialed that in so that not only are you connecting with messaging that works for the niche that you work with, but you're becoming better known in that space for construction companies.
Wes Towers:Yeah, absolutely, and you get to pick up. After a while working in one niche, you get to learn what their biggest needs are, and drivers and what works for one company might translate reasonably well for the next. Now, every company will be slightly different but you kind of pick up some.
Wes Towers:you can get some quick wins for them oftentimes and it's kind of hard to as a small business to but to compete with the really big guys in our space who have got multiple people, huge teams who can sort of target everything, I'm never going to beat those matter who I'm sort of pitching against. If it's my niche, I've got a really strong and compelling reason for them to use my services because it'll be a leader in the field.
Dr. William Attaway:Well, and you become that expert authority when it comes to construction companies, and people see you that way.
Wes Towers:Yeah. Yeah, it's been the best thing, but it was a scary thing too. It was a scary journey in a lot of ways because it feels as though you're cutting off lots of opportunities. I think that's the biggest reason. Everyone's probably heard they should niche, but then when the rubber hits the road and you've got to actually do it, it's a scary thing. Yes, I mean the way I didn't cut off existing clients and I've still got legacy clients that we serve because I've served them for many years and they're still happy. But over the course of time it's become more and more construction, and that was by I chose my niche almost by accident. I just got to a point where I realized all my best clients kind of looked the same. They were kind of in the same industries. They were the happiest. So it's always a pleasure to work with happy clients because they're getting great results. And so, man, I want to live a happy life and have happy clients, because my life is much better and their lives are much better. That's right, so it just all makes sense.
Dr. William Attaway:I love that and I get that scary aspect because it does feel like you're saying no to a whole lot of business that could be yours. Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's not a decision that you regret, and I think that's important for our listeners, to hear those who have not yet made that decision, or who've been thinking about it and know they should, but they haven't done it yet. I think your story is powerful because you can illustrate hey, this was scary for me too, but I did it and I'm glad I did it, yeah.
Wes Towers:Yeah, On the flip side there's a kind of a horror story of in my early days of business where I wasn't niched at all and I took on a project that really was outside of our skill set. I had a tiny team back then but I took on a project for all the wrong reasons. It seemed to be like it was going to be highly profitable, but it wasn't really what we did. But we did it anyway and I partially did it because my lead developer at the time he was kind of getting a bit bored. He was very advanced, He'd been with me for quite a while and he was finding the work boring, for whatever reason.
Wes Towers:So I thought, well, this will keep him happy because it's something new and engaging and exciting was a dating website. It's nothing ever I've ever done before. The problem with that was a few different things happened. So the web developer who I knew was unhappy to a degree or bored um, he ended up leaving mid project and he was the one who did all the scoping of scoping of the job as well oh no he's the only guy who had the skill set to get the job done and it was the biggest job we'd ever had ever won, oh my goodness.
Wes Towers:So man, I, I spent midnight hours, uh, figuring it out and having to do a lot of it myself, which is not, but we got there and the client was happy. The client had no idea of the torment it was causing me. So I suppose that pain in realizing, hey, it's better to be really great at the few things that you do well and don't try and deviate too far away from that. So lesson learned.
Wes Towers:I mean, we finished the dating website, she built the business and sold the business. So she did well and she was happy. She had no idea of the torment I lived through, not niching in, not sticking to my lane.
Dr. William Attaway:So, yeah, well, you know you, you bring up, you know, focusing on a few things and doing them really well. You know, in the intro that I read you know you guys focus on websites and SEO. Yeah, and I think that's something that a lot of people right now are trying to navigate this season that we're in around SEO, with the rise of AI and the disruption that that is bringing and the disruption that that is bringing, do you still see SEO as important, going forward with AI really disrupting search as it has been?
Wes Towers:Yeah, yeah, I think there's a few different ways of people are talking about it now and different acronyms and all that sort of stuff. I'm going with the search everywhere optimization. I think you had a guest on who said the same thing. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that philosophy everywhere optimization. I think you had a guest on who said the same thing. Yeah, I agree with that philosophy as well, because it's handy, because we write SEO on everything, so it's the same letters. I like it, but it really is.
Wes Towers:People are using ChatGPT and they're searching in entire sentences or even paragraphs. They're talking to their ChatGPT on their phone requesting information. The way I look at it is a website's still critical in that whole process, because if anyone's going to make a buying decision, they're going to go to the premises of the business or go to the digital shop front, which is the website, before they make an engagement. Before they buy anything and particularly for a higher-end product, they're going to do a fair bit of research. So checking out the website to check the authority and the authenticity of the company is really critical.
Wes Towers:There's a whole lot of well there's less traffic coming to websites now because the answer is met on Google or the other chat, gpt or the other AI platforms. So that's in the research phase where someone's starting to look at their options and understand what it is to research. But once they need to hire a company then they're still visiting a website. So that's proven in the stats that we've got. A lot of our clients have got less traffic to the website per se, but not less inquiries. That's good, that's a good distinction.
Dr. William Attaway:Sorry, go on. That's a good distinction there, yeah. The traffic versus the search, yeah.
Wes Towers:Yeah, it's about managing that process and explaining, and, and explaining it's and it's changing so fast, you know. So, um, it is, yeah, it's exciting and terrifying in some ways so well.
Dr. William Attaway:I think there's a perception of the construction industry in particular that you serve as kind of being behind the times, you know, not really keeping up with the latest and greatest technologically, you know whether it's you know websites or email or heaven forbid SEO, you know. So why do you think that perception is there first, and what are you doing about that with the clients that you serve?
Wes Towers:Yeah, so it can be a little different depending on the client, because we're probably going for a slightly bigger construction Well, not necessarily huge, but big enough that they've got a marketing person at least, maybe not a full department but someone who's in charge of that department. So at least from that perspective they're invested into marketing to some degree and so working through that person so I'm their support person effectively to from the technical standpoint, but just so they understand what's happening because things are changing so fast, and to support where we need to. So that's one aspect. But you're right, when working, oftentimes I'll also be working, because sometimes they're quite junior, those marketing people within those organizations. So you'll be working with the guy who started the company, the founder, and they've worked their way up from the ground up on the tools. So they're practical people, they build stuff. They don't sit behind a computer. That's not their natural thing to sit behind a computer.
Wes Towers:So I guess the key is to build relationships and trust with the people that you're working with so that they learn to trust what we're doing. That's the key thing. I think that's kind of helpful. That's part of the reason why you need to niche, because you really need to understand what's in their best interest as well. I mean, seo is not for every client as well. Some of our clients win all their work from Tinder. So, yeah, it's unnecessary for them to be found on Google from that level, because they're just doing proposals. Now they still need a great website because when they're putting in a Tinder, they're likely going to check out the company from every angle, so they're going to check out their website. So, yeah, sometimes just even advising, hey, seo is not probably the best investment for you. Here's what we can do within your website to get the best value for you. I think that's important as well.
Dr. William Attaway:Well, and I think that again speaks to the integrity you bring as the expert in the field, and you can say, hey, based on what I've seen, based on what I know, and looking at your unique circumstances in your business, this is what I think is best for you and what I think you don't need to worry with right now. Yeah, I think that's helpful, particularly with people who don't have the expertise and the background in this, yeah, which is a lot of your field.
Wes Towers:Yeah, 100%, 100% your field. Yeah, 100, 100. It's, um, it's. It's so much better to to um advise clients away from a service, um, because if you sell them something that they don't really need, well, they're going to be unhappy and it just creates problems down the down the line. I mean, most of our very best clients still come from referral or people who have transitioned from one company to the next. You'll follow them around. They'll keep you in their suite of trusted advisors. I suppose you would say so. Your reputation is so important these days and you don't want to damage it just for one sale. That's very, very true. Yeah, and that's wise and long sale.
Dr. William Attaway:That's very, very true. Yeah, and that's wise and long thinking. You're playing the long game, yeah, Thanks. Let me ask you, thinking about the economic climate that we're in right now you've mentioned this already that things are not as free-flowing and easy as it has been in the past. So I think building trust and credibility have never been more important in life. How do you?
Wes Towers:do that? How do I build the trust? Getting great reviews is obviously one of the strongest things you can do and I just make it a habit to. I've built it into some of our processes so they will get a request from automated request for a Google review throughout the process. Oftentimes people forget that, but so you just gently remind them and people like to help people so they realize I'm running a small business. I've got a strong relationship with my clients.
Wes Towers:So when I say, hey, do you mind leaving a quick Google review or something they generally will, so those sorts of things, anything that anyone you know you can say the most positive things about your own company on your website and your socials and all that kind of thing. But once someone else says it on a platform that you can say the most positive things about your own company on your website and your socials and all that kind of thing, but once someone else says it on a, on a platform that you can't control or manipulate, like Google reviews, um, that's, that's always the most powerful thing. So that, yeah, that's the reputation building. Um, I, I. I live in a reasonably small town here in just outside of Melbourne, geelong, so you couldn't survive in a town like this doing a poor job? I don't think as well. So you know it's….
Dr. William Attaway:Reputation matters.
Wes Towers:Yeah, yeah, so that's for the local market. I mean, not all our clients are here as well. We've got clients all over Australia and even some internationally as well. But yeah, you know, reputation is the key. Uh, you know, particularly with ai and how things are going, so anyone can quickly create a message and, you know, publish things so fast to build a perceived um authority. But it's not until someone else says positive things about you that it's authenticated, I suppose.
Dr. William Attaway:Yeah, that's really good. So if you were starting Uplift today in the economy that we're in right now, what would you do differently? What's the biggest thing you've learned that you would love to go back and apply from the very beginning?
Wes Towers:you've learned that you would love to go back and apply from the very beginning. Yeah, so I think early on I was a naturally shy kid. That might surprise some people now, because I'm just more comfortable in my own skin, I suppose. But I suppose as a young business person I was a little bit fearful in even making contact with people that you know, businesses that I felt were like really successful, or people I was just scared to talk to people that I was really impressed by. But these days I would find a way.
Wes Towers:These days I would find a way if I was starting again and I could speak to my young self back then I would just encourage myself to be brave and to realize people are just people and they've all had their own journey, even though they might be older and more experienced. I should have hung because I was confident in my skill set and everything that I did. I should have built my confidence more so on that and just not worried about saying the wrong thing or presenting not too well or all those sorts of things that we worry about as young people. I think just starting and realizing people are people and no one's looking down upon me if I say the wrong thing, you know, that's really good.
Dr. William Attaway:Yeah, I think that wrong thing. You know that's really good. Yeah, I think that's smart and that goes to the maturity that comes with leading something for a period of time. Yeah, I think that's a really solid lesson. Yeah, so, talking about your growth and your development, you know Uplift needs you to lead at a higher level today than it did five years ago, and the same thing is going to be true five years from now. So how do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the new leadership skills that your business and your team and your clients are going to need you to have in the days ahead?
Wes Towers:Yeah, really interesting. So just a couple of days ago I don't know might have been on a YouTube I was watching. I can't even remember who said it, but they said how they were talking to their chat GBT and just were asking hey, you know me really well, which it does, and it knows me well because I'm always talking to it what are my weaknesses? And it kind of was really insightful. So I requested what are my weaknesses? As a kind of was it was really insightful, so said what, what I requested, what, what are my weaknesses as a leader in in my own business? And it it gave me a really interesting insight in saying that I I may be too too wanting too much control, so still, um, everything, nearly everything, not every minor detail goes through me, but I'm on top of every project, so I project manage everything. So that's a real potential bottleneck. So so so it was great because it was so true, because it knows me so well and it knows I like I go through every contingency and different strategy and everything through the platform. It sort of just hides me.
Wes Towers:Okay, I've got to start building more trust into the team members I've got, because I know that they're great. So I've got to find ways to. I suppose maybe it looks back at that that that team, uh, that leader I had previously who got bored. Maybe that was my fault because I didn't make a way for him to transition to something greater and I called it out too late and I tried to solve the problem with with uh with a solution which it was too late and it wasn't the right solution.
Wes Towers:So I've got to think about how I look after my team so that they don't get bored, that they remain engaged and they can grow. So those are the things I've got to look at and, particularly with things evolving fast, there might be opportunities for my team to remain so if I stay on top of the tools and the techniques and the strategies but I find the right people to grow into those new roles as well, because there will be new roles and there'll be redundant roles. I believe in our industry. I think that's. I think they're key things that I've got to look at as the leader. They're my responsibility.
Dr. William Attaway:That's good. Is there a book that you've read that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? Hey, if you haven't read this, it would be worth your time.
Wes Towers:Yeah, I think the books I read early on were the most insightful because everything's kind of new back then. So the E-Myth, which was written Great book I don't know how many times I read that, but I read it heaps of times, probably, I don't know, four or five times. But just to solidify the concept of having systems and processes, because we're in a creative industry and my persuasion, I guess, is the creative. So that can sometimes be less pragmatic and practical and process driven. So a book like that was really powerful.
Wes Towers:Just to think about how do we make this a process. So it's the same every time. Now the, the design will look different every time, but there's the, the order in which we get to that solution. We follow the same process. So it doesn't matter which person in the we get to that solution. We follow the same process. So it doesn't matter which person in the team is working on it. They can pick it up anywhere. And also, you know, someone's away sick. We did have someone away sick for a couple of weeks. It didn't matter from a business perspective because someone else could just jump in and see precisely where it was at and complete the process. So that E-Myth was transformational really, and it was good that I read it so early on.
Dr. William Attaway:That's such a great book.
Wes Towers:I love that.
Dr. William Attaway:Yeah, well, if I had the ability to snap my fingers and solve one problem in your business right now, what would you want that problem to be?
Wes Towers:Yeah. So the problem is to see where the industry is going, the future, the tools and the techniques of the future. Which is the future is happening now. It feels like it's just happening so fast. So that's the biggest challenge. Right now, I feel like we've got a good stack of software and techniques and tools and strategies, but I could change tomorrow. It's just phenomenal. So that's where I will need the most help and guidance. Um, moving forward, I would say.
Dr. William Attaway:Yeah, I think that's a great skill. I would love to be able to give that to you to be able to see around the corner, and I think to some extent that is part of senior leadership. It's the fact that, as John Maxwell says so well, leaders see more than other people see, and they see before other people see. We can, to an extent, see a little farther down the road as leaders.
Wes Towers:Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway:But we can't see it all and there's always going to be the unexpected. And being adaptable and flexible and being able to handle those things I think that's part of the fun of what we get to do, right? Yeah?
Wes Towers:I think that's part of the fun of what we get to do, right? Yeah, yeah, I think that's what makes an entrepreneur, isn't it To be able to perceive the future and to see opportunity in?
Dr. William Attaway:that. Yeah, To see what could be. Yeah, absolutely. Wes, I always love our conversations and I'm so glad that you were on the show and have been so generous in sharing some of what you've learned so far in your journey. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you and more about what you're doing. What's the best way for them to do that?
Wes Towers:Yeah, so the website would probably be the easiest thing. Uplift360.comau. So I publish content to there fairly regularly, but also from there you'll find the social media links. People can connect directly with my personal LinkedIn as well. I accept everybody, and that personal LinkedIn is on the website as well.
Dr. William Attaway:So yeah, uplift360.comau perfect, we'll have those links in the show notes great, excellent. Wes thanks so much for your time today. Thanks, it's been brilliant.
