Catalytic Leadership

AI for Agency Growth: Scaling Smarter Without Burning Out

• Dr. William Attaway • Season 3 • Episode 117

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Scaling an agency beyond seven figures demands more than hard work — it requires clarity, leverage, and systems that don’t break under pressure. In this episode, I’m joined by Richard Levy, Founder and CEO of Sophera Marketing, who brings decades of global marketing and leadership experience. We talk about how to use AI for agency growth in ways that actually move the numbers your C-suite cares about, how to prove marketing ROI without guesswork, and how to lead distributed teams across time zones without losing momentum. Richard shares practical ways to eliminate bottlenecks, align marketing strategy with revenue, and harness AI for smarter decisions — not just faster ones. If you want to scale with focus, protect your energy, and elevate your team’s performance, you’ll find clear, actionable strategies here you can put to work right away.


📚 Books Mentioned

  • Playing to Win by A.G. Lafley and Roger L. Martin

  • Good Strategy Bad Strategy by Richard Rumelt

  • Good to Great by Jim Collins


You can connect with Richard on LinkedIn or email him at RichardLevy@sopheramarketing.co.uk. He shares regular insights on marketing, leadership, and business strategy, and he’s always open to a good conversation, even if you see things differently.



Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.

Connect with Dr. William Attaway:

Dr. William Attaway:

It's an honor today to have Richard Levy on the podcast. Richard's the founder and CEO of Sophera Marketing, with a wealth of experience in driving commercial success across the globe. He has extensive experience in building and enhancing brands through every marketing channel. He's led high-performing teams in the UK, emea and North America for Illuminis companies like GE, santander, first National and MoneyGram. He's also worked with a number of UK-based companies, including Tesco, halfords, homebase and British Gas. Richard's expertise spans digital marketing, brand management, crm analytics, research strategy development, social media, agency management and marketing communications. Richard, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Richard Levy:

That was me. That was some introduction. Thank you very much for inviting me onto the show.

Dr. William Attaway:

I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Intro:

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway:

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, Richard, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

Richard Levy:

Yeah, it's a good question. It was a long time ago, or it seems a long time ago, that I did what a lot of people do in the UK is you graduate from university and I did business administration and the strange thing is that if you do law or accountancy or finance, then the path is relatively clear for you. When you do a more generalist course like business, of course you come out and there's not such a clear path. But I joined a very large bank in the uk, a spanish bank but based in the uk at the time santander on their marketing graduate scheme, um, and you spend six months in a branch working on the front line which which is incredibly educational actually, to go and see what's really happening and then six months in a communications department advertising and then six months in a products area. And then I joined there and then from then on stayed primarily in financial services but had a far more curious mind to take me into other industries. So I was in places like GE, for example, which is again that's GE Capital at the time, and that was almost like going to university every day. The caliber of people at GE was phenomenal. It was just at the end of the Jack Welsh era and then Jeff Immelt came in, so there was quite a lot of transformation going on there. And then MoneyGram, where I ran Europe and their digital arm, and then a company called RFX which was based in Australia.

Richard Levy:

So I sort of got this international experience from the UK, america and then Australia. You'll see that I don't speak more than English, so consequently, I sort of tried to stick to the countries that I didn't have to learn another language. Having said that, I think two of the biggest leadership challenges as that was your original question that I've had is one is managing teams that were in Australia. When I'm based in the UK, there's a 11 hour time difference, so your time together is either very early in my morning or very late and also getting to know people and understanding it and those water cooler moments and the everyday life moments that in leadership, if you're going to be authentic, getting to know people as people is really difficult.

Richard Levy:

The second bit was managing people in countries like Russia, where the culture is very, very different from the UK, and so it's a really interesting learning experience and I actually think the culture in the US and the UK is fairly different as well. So when you go internationally, you see, the idea that everyone is like you is is nonsense and you actually learn very quickly. You're going to have to adapt to them, rather than the other way around. I remember being in a meeting in italy, as an example, where literally you know, there was eight, eight, nine people and they're speaking italian because I'm the only one that doesn't speak english. And you feel quite. It's quite an uncomfortable position because everyone's adjusting for you and yet you're the one who's trying to build your credibility. It's an interesting one.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know so many things you touched on. There are things that I deal with clients and I help them walk through all over the world.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, culture matters and I think so often we think about the competency of team members that we're looking to hire or that we're managing. We look at their competency, we look at their character, we look at the chemistry of the team and all those things are important. But every team, every company, has a culture and that culture exists inside of the larger culture and where it's located, where the team is located, and you ignore that to your peril. Like as you have led and managed remote teams from all over and worked with clients from all over. Like can you think of an example of a time when, man, I just thought this and we ran headlong into a brick wall?

Richard Levy:

Yes is the answer. And, interestingly, if I look at the US market as an example, when I manage teams in the US, let me talk about the UK, us and Australia, because there's three English speaking areas, so english culture tends to be everyone being desperately polite to each other, as we are in england, um, never quite saying what we mean. You know, sort of going around the houses etc. When you, when I then ended up working in dallas, I found it very direct. People just said what felt, and that sort of level of small talk and what did you do on the weekend almost doesn't exist. It's very much like let's get down to business and let's do it now.

Richard Levy:

And a real I was going to use the word subservient, so I don't know if that's quite the right word but a hierarchy where, if the ceo said you go left, well, everyone goes left. And I think in the uk the ceo goes left, everyone goes. Why are we going left? So we sort of question it more. Where in the us I certainly found it was much more led at the top and that you followed instruction and you didn't really question it.

Richard Levy:

And then I felt in australia, as I alluded to before, I think the biggest challenge in australia was that this time difference is a real killer because when I was managing teams in the us, about 2 pm everyone will come online. So you've got from two to say six or seven. You can get four or five hours in every day. Yeah, in australia their 7 pm is my 8 am, so if I start at 7 am my time, it's 6 pm their time, so they're looking to leave. You know that the day's done. They've been there long enough and yet you're coming in and saying, okay, tell me about the days, and it's difficult, and then also managing conflict between them and someone else in an Australian office.

Richard Levy:

When you're not there, you're not seeing the personalities, you're getting a lot of different views.

Richard Levy:

It's really really difficult and the only way around it and I'm taking away the practicality is to spend as much time as you can actually over there in the office in Sydney getting to know people and understanding it, and ideally you'd spend a month or so really integrating yourself so you can get an idea of the picture. Because you were right to say that not just every company has its own culture, but every office has its own culture. That's right, and you're on the outside of that because you're on the other side of the world and so either you have people who you have a relationship with already or you somehow can find um commonality that you somehow can really blend, or I think it's a little bit struggle both ways, and probably that was where, when you said that I hit a brick wall, I had to really get very introspective and ask a lot of people for advice on how would you manage this situation, because it wasn't easy and it was an interesting learning, that's good.

Dr. William Attaway:

You have been in the marketing world for a couple of decades now, yeah, and with somebody who has been in a field that long, you have seen a lot of things come and go, a lot of shiny objects come and go, a lot of trends come and go. And I'm curious, as you think back, what are some things that pop out at you as some key takeaways from your tenure in marketing thus, far.

Richard Levy:

Yeah, it's a really, really good question. When I first started the measurement, the effectiveness there's this awful quote in marketing that goes back many decades, which is you know, I waste 50% of my marketing budget. I just don't know which 50% it is, and what that does is suggest that there's a sort of lack of accountability. And if you look at marketing, in a lot of businesses the biggest expense tends to be the people, right. Then there might be an IT budget and then there's a marketing budget, or there may even be a people and then marketing. So the IT and the marketing are a bit interchangeable, the point being it tends to be the second or third largest budget traditionally in in companies. With that comes a responsibility.

Richard Levy:

When I first started, we would measure the effectiveness. We'd put an advert in a publication. It would have a code next to it and we'd say when you ring up this number, quote this code. And then everyone would be writing down on their spreadsheet how many times the code was quoted and then we could say, oh, you know, someone quoted it 15 times, so we'd know we had 15 responses to that advert on that particular day. So really unscientific. We've now gone to a very, very different extreme, and let's use digital marketing as an example where I don't think we've mastered as an industry a common attribution model that satisfies everyone. So, for example, how did I hear about your podcast? Right? It's very possible that a friend said to me listen to this podcast, it's really good. I then go onto your website, do a Google search, I then click and we then have a conversation on a podcast. If you're looking at that statistically, you're going to say online conversion, right? He did a bit of Google search, found where I was clicked and went through tick. The reality was it was actually nothing to do with the online element, really. That just facilitated it. It was the fact someone had told me about it. So we haven't got this measurement correct. Um, econometrics is coming in in the uk.

Richard Levy:

My personal view is anyone who's spending any significant amount of money needs to have some kind of model that suggests what's happening, because we're moving. I think we might be moving out of it, but we've been in an era where everyone wants to measure everything, and that's good because it brings people accountability, but also it allows certain things to go unchecked. So I'll give you one more example, if I may, if I, as owner of Saphira Marketing on my brand term have to pay Google to have my advert showing on Saphira Marketing. So if someone then has to type into fear of marketing into google, click on my advert because it's the first banner they see and then they go on to hire me to help them with their marketing. Do I say to myself it was the advert that won, so my acquisition cost is really low because obviously it's my own brand term and the relevancy and all that. Or do I say to myself, actually, whatever I spent on that I wasted, because they're typed into fear of marketing anyway and so quite clearly they were looking for me and they would have found me through organic search.

Richard Levy:

But what's going to happen is, in my experience, is most marketeers will say this is brilliant because brand search is traditionally quite a low cost of acquisition. You could feed that back to the business and say look how well we're doing. And someone should say, yeah, but what about the incrementality? What happens if you weren't doing it? And there's now companies in the UK who are testing doing non-brand search. So they don't cover their brand at all and they're not seeing much difference in the traffic. So therefore the argument would be that by measuring it, we're measuring the wrong thing. We're measuring how it happens, we're not measuring the incrementality, and I think that's a serious problem we have.

Dr. William Attaway:

Yeah, that's fascinating. How do you build a strategy in the midst of that type of a context?

Richard Levy:

You first realize that there's something I heard the other day from a very clever strategist that said to me audience before content, which I love, because what it's saying is know your audience and then make the content relevant to them, don't build the content and then feed it to the audience. Yeah, so it was just a nice little abc of audience content and I felt that when you're talking to the CFO or the CEO, clearly this is going to have to be a numerical conversation. They're not interested in brand awareness, brand equity, I don't know right, brand recall, however much jargon you and I, no doubt, could spend hours talking about, right, they're not interested. What they're interested in is top line, bottom line, customer lifetime value, cost of acquisition, financials, financial, which is correct in their position.

Richard Levy:

So any strategy you build and I really say this, I teach at cambridge, actually it's one of the things um, I teach that the students there is you have to understand, right, the commercial value of what you're doing, because if you can't translate what you're doing into pounds and pence or dollars and dimes in your example, I think you're really, really going to struggle to gain credibility. So that strategy has to start with what are we trying to achieve as a business financially, and how can I contribute towards that? Now, we as marketeers may not be responsible for setting the price, so I would hope we have a say in it. We may not be responsible for certain aspects of the customer journey, but in the bits we are responsible for or what we can influence, the strategy has to ultimately feed to a commercial outcome, which sounds really obvious. But the amount of marketeers I speak to and I say, how much revenue did you generate last year with this? And they look at you in a slightly panicked way and said but we increased brand awareness. That's a problem. That's a problem.

Dr. William Attaway:

Well, that's not what the CEO is interested in, right? Like you say, they're looking at the bottom line.

Richard Levy:

And that's why, as an industry, if you look at the amount of marketing people in the boardroom, it's diminishing because we struggle as an industry to talk in the only language that people really want to hear, which is showing me the commercial impact of what you've done. So it's a challenge. So, strategically, I always say to people start with what we're trying to achieve as a business and work our way back. And if you can go into the boardroom and talk about I increased the customer lifetime value, I bought in 100 different customers, this will be their value. This is what it cost us, truly, cost us incrementally. Instead of customers staying with us two years, they're going to stay with us four years those terms and you can then equate to some financial outcome. You're going to have your C-suite position because this is someone people want to listen to and they feel this guy's really helping my business.

Richard Levy:

I always say set the strategy, because if you're talking to the CEO or CFO, what do they want to hear? And you shouldn't go that far wrong. But it's difficult because as marketers we don't really want to admit we can't measure everything, we don't want to admit that some things we try don't work. And also I find that when you're setting strategy, things outside of your control also will come in and might provide you with headwinds. Things can be good or might provide you with difficulties. You don't know what the competition are going to do. You don't know if there's going to be a new entrant. You don't know if someone's going to slash their price. You don't know if someone's going to open up a store next to your most successful one. There are these variables that of course, will influence a lot. A very good point.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, one of the biggest conversations that I hear these days in marketing world is that around the rise of AI, and you look at the landscape with the context of the decades you've spent in the field. How do you see AI? What do you see it as?

Richard Levy:

I think we're underestimating it, which is a bold claim, which probably will be in Marketing Week, which is the UK publication of marketing. If I say that we're underestimating it, we're underestimating it because there are certain revolutions that come along every X amount of years. You've got the industrial revolution, the technological revolution. The internet provided a revolution. It fundamentally changes the way we behave, absolutely, and AI will do so. Let me give you an example from outside the marketing world, and then we'll bring it back to our world.

Richard Levy:

If you go for a knee operation in a year's time, you can either have a doctor doing it who spent the last 10 years doing it and knows his or her knowledge Her knowledge is pretty good, so this is good for your confidence or you could go to a machine that could look at every knee operation that you've got that's ever happened and say this is what needs to happen and this will be the recovery time and this is how long it will take. Now you still need that surgeon, probably to guide it and to explain it to you and to work alongside it. No-transcript could tell you what the solution is and then can tell you how you're going to recover from it. So let's now make that about marketing. Marketing done properly which is not that common, but done properly has three stages, which is diagnose, then set the strategy and then set the tactics. The problem is that I have found and this is a mistake I've made is that I've gone into interviews with companies who want my services and said well, this is what we need to do, william, we need to spend the next nine months diagnosing, then I'll come up with a strategy, then I'll tell you what the tactics are. And they said that's really good, but we've got about nine days, not nine months, right? So you're now worrying me with this kind of approach. Right, ai will help with all of that because it can do the groundwork for us. Now, it will only ever be as good as the inputs that we put into it and it will only be as good as the outputs we take from it and then amend and change around. So I look at it as a sort of 80-20 rule, where 80% of it AI will do for you, but the 10% at the beginning and the 10% at the end are the most crucial bits.

Richard Levy:

Don't be lazy. That's good, because AI will hallucinate, not understand, get things wrong, quote sources that don't exist, and also you've got to put it in your language. There's nothing worse than you look on linkedin and people write anything. What a computer wrote this right. So you don't want that. But you think about I was investigating the other day synthetic research which is becoming sort of quite big here in the uk.

Richard Levy:

I don't know if you come across this as of yet, but the idea that rather than me going to 2 000 people paying a polling company, getting the right people, I can do it via ai and they'll build the personas and they'll look at everything that's ever been said about this kind of thing on the market and then I'll feed them the question and it'll take all that information and come back with the latest answer. Now there's there's issues with that that. There's issues that how up to date is that? How reliable is it? But equally, there's issues when you do human research. You know when people have to fill out 30 questions on a questionnaire. By the time they come to number 20 I don't mean their concentration level is what it was at number 10, right? People guess people don't know, people just want the incentive that you're giving them filling out the questionnaire. So ai will take all of that away as well. So there's limitations but there's advantages.

Richard Levy:

So I think when marketers come to me and say I'm concerned, ai is going to take my job, I say, well, it won't, as long as you know how to use it. So you need to embrace it. And secondly, when people say, well, all creative will look the same, I read a study the other day from the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute in Australia 71% of B2B creative is never recorded by any customer the next day. So I would say your creative is pretty crap now on the whole. And if you don't believe me, go and watch TV, right, and then tell me what you think of the efforts, right, good word.

Richard Levy:

Therefore, I think we have a lot to gain by something helping us. And also, the other thing I love about it is, if I'm dealing with SMEs or entrepreneurs or people on their own, it's made the whole thing much more democratic, because the idea before was that you had to be a big company to be able to afford a creative to do this work for you. Now, gpt image creator if you put in the right input into it and you have a bit of patience, within 10 minutes you can have an advert that's probably as good as a creator would have made for you in two days and charged you a few hundred dollars. For You've got to put the effort in before. Put the effort in before you will reach. You know the dividends will be rich.

Dr. William Attaway:

I like what you say there about the 80% and the 10 and the 10. I I like what you say there about the 80% and the 10 and the 10. I think that's something that not a lot of people are talking about, and I think that's really important. You know, way back in the day, when we were in the early days of computers, there was a term that was in vogue then that I think is going to come back, and that's GIGO Garbage in, garbage out. You put garbage data into the room-sized computer, you got garbage results out, and I think of AI exactly that way. If you don't prompt it correctly, if you're not careful crafting the prompts and then refining your prompts over time as you do this, the results are going to reflect that, and I think that's very important 100%.

Richard Levy:

And let me give you a real example of that. I did a lecture on Wednesday two days ago to a few hundred SMEs and I was making the point that sounds really simple is you've got to talk in the language of your customer. Don't talk in like marketing-wise. Don't talk about brand awareness and brand equity, no one cares. Talk about customers and sales, right, marketing-wise. Don't talk about brand awareness and brand equity, no one cares. Talk about customers and sales, right.

Richard Levy:

And I said go on to Gemini, claude, chat, whatever one you want to use, and just prompt it and say I'm a wedding planner in Chicago. I do everything from beginning to end, a little bit about my business and a little bit about the consumers I'm trying to attract. And tell it to search all the forums, reddit, all the chats, everything online and say what are the biggest issues people are finding with wedding planners in Chicago and tell me their exact issues in their language. That took me one and a half minutes of my time to think. So it's not easy one and a half minutes because it's focused, but one and a half minutes and I then get back this catalog of sourced language that my consumers are talking. So I now know that if I'm a wedding planner in chicago, my website should be answering the questions that these people are talking about, because these are their concerns.

Richard Levy:

Yes, yes, so don't worry about seo and anything like that. Just talk in the customer's language and if you do that, people will naturally find you and you can use ai to do that for you. But you've got to have the imagination beforehand to think this is what I need to do and then check it afterward. Does it make sense? People would say that. But if you do the 10 and the 10, you're in a great position. There's no excuse now to have a website that doesn't meet the needs of the customer, because you can find out what the customer exactly wants from you so well said.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that. Richard, you know your business and your team and your clients need you to lead at a higher level today than they did five years ago, and that same thing is going to be true five years from now. How do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the new leadership skills that your team and your business and your clients are going to need you to have in the years to come?

Richard Levy:

A couple of answers to that, if I may. One is continuous learning. I think should be part of all of us. So I've just completed a couple of courses at London Business School, london School of Economics, one on leadership and one on marketing. So those two areas that I sort of thrive in, I'm hoping I know the latest stuff.

Richard Levy:

One of the things that I try and think about about leadership is you normally have three levels. You've got upward, sideways and below, and most people come in and think, well, all I have to do is make my boss happy. But the reality is I heard this the other day from someone most of the people who advocate for you are not going to be your boss, they're going to be people below you and to the side of you. And if you want to progress in your career, your boss is not enough, usually because other people might challenge it or other people may support it. So it's not when I say upwards, I'm not just talking about the boss, I'm talking about that the levels plural that sit above you, the levels that sit across you and the levels that sit below you. In a way, managing people below should be the easiest because in theory, in a hierarchical situation. They sort of should listen to you. But I feel there's a few things that you can do for all those levels.

Richard Levy:

One is build commonality. What is it that you have in common on a personal level? What are they into? Do they have kids? Do they have a family? Do they go to church? Do they play golf? Do they running on a saturday morning? What is it? Get to know people as people, because in the end, we're in a human game here where people ultimately buy people, and so the idea that you can get commonality is that you're both dallas cowboy fans, whatever it may be right that just find something with everyone around you that there's a little bit commonality. If someone mentions their wife's name, remember the wife's name. If they say my daughter's ill, come back a week later, say hey, how's rebecca doing? Right, because it shows a personal, genuine interest.

Richard Levy:

And I think in leadership now it's moved away from I tell you what to do to we work on things together. The other thing I find in leadership and I used to have a boss, sarah, who was very good at this, because I try that if I'm the most senior person in the room, I give my opinion last, because what I don't want to do is give my opinion first and everyone to say, well, yeah, because he said it, they'll never say it's because you said it, but they'll. And then the other thing is is trying to get people behind you, and I think it's something like politically, where people are not understanding the vision, where we are going and what are we trying to achieve. And if you can break that vision down into really simple language that everyone understands and everyone understands their part in it, you know, if the who. Let me give an example If you go to a hotel, the person on the door who opens the door for you, tells you where to eat that night, welcomes you friendly, tells you where to park the car and gives you a tip about how to get theater tickets, that person has a massive impact on the experience that you're going to have at that hotel, and so the person opening the door is equally as important as the person who answered the phone when you rang up, as the internet experience when you booked, as the person in reception, you think about how many people influence your journey, and so when you're leading, it's really, really important to bring everyone together and not be siloed and think everyone has a role here, how you know, if you rang up a company and the person at the other end of the phone sounded bored, miserable, disinterested, all that money they spent promoting their brand is worthless because he or she on the phone have just ruined it. And so I think, from a leadership point of view, we have to see that bigger picture, we have to see the vision and we have to make people feel that their role in it is important, because the minute they feel they're just a cog in a wheel, everything's tends to, tends to go. So there's a few tips, um, but it's, it's a race without a finish line, because you're absolutely right saying five years time, I'd probably give a very different answer.

Richard Levy:

But I think, if you can deal, if you can be a human and you can listen, I should add this listening, the most important skill. Listen to what's being said and listen to what's not being said. That's right. And we've all listened. We've all had conversations with people where all I feel is you're waiting for your turn to speak. How much longer is this going to go? Because I've got my few to say. And we've all had conversations with people who truly listen and reflect and sometimes say hey, william, can I just read that back to you Because I'm not sure I understood, but I just want to make sure I did. You can't really listen to me. So lots and lots of different ways you can do it, but have a vision, understand people as a human and learn how to listen, I think would be three of them.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that, richard. I think that's so intentional and so purposeful and I think seeing people as actual 3D human beings, not as the cogs I think that's critical to leading well and I love that you are so focused on growing in this and developing this and maintaining that teachable spirit, that continual learning posture. So, as you were in that posture, is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening?

Richard Levy:

Oh, that's a really, really interesting question, Certainly on the marketing front. Certainly on the marketing front. Well, there is a book, actually it's called it's by Lafferty, who used to head up Procter Gamble.

Richard Levy:

Playing to Win, yes, and he talks about the strategy behind winning companies. So that's really interesting. There's also can I go with two others, please? I'm not really answering your question, please. Also, um, can I go with two others? I sort of please really answering your question, um, but, but, but the two others was there's a book called good strategy, bad strategy, which talks about how to lead strategically and what strategy really looks like and how you tell how you bring companies with you and how you bring the people with you, and I think that's really, really interesting. So that's one. And the third one is an older book, but but you're probably familiar with it, from Good to Great, which looks at how good companies can get.

Richard Levy:

It's brilliant.

Dr. William Attaway:

One of my favorites.

Richard Levy:

Yeah, and again it talks about the importance of leadership and charisma and vision and treating people as individuals. All three of those books are interesting because none of them say I am a leadership book, but all three of them you'd see, woven into it is that if you can't lead people or you can't lead an organization, you're not going to win. I was also interested just in your comment there about treating people as people, because I think, as people tend to get higher and higher in companies, the temptation is to look at spreadsheets with people's names on it and costs. Suddenly that human element disappears because you're thinking, oh my goodness, I've got to cut costs. That's right, and I think it's very important that we as leaders don't fall into that trick and also understand that there's human capital here, which is not just a number on a spreadsheet. It's wider than that.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's well said. Very well said, Richard. We could keep talking and we could go an hour, two hours, three hours. I think there's so much here that I have picked up in this conversation and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so generously here. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn more from you and more about what you're doing. What's the best way for them to do?

Richard Levy:

that Well, firstly, thank you for your words. It's been a real privilege to be on with you today, so thank you for the opportunity. Um, truly appreciate it. Um, two ways really. I'm on linkedin, um, I'm richard levy, levy y1, so just the sort of number one. Apparently there's another richard levy who got there before I did so I've had to take richard levy one. Um, or, and I write quite a lot on linkedin and it's mainly my thoughts on the world or things I see happening, or marketing stuff, or business stuff or leadership, and I try and post quite a lot of quotes or videos that particularly resonated. So please do follow. And the other thing is obviously email me, richard Levy, at sephiramarketingcouk, and you know I'll always engage back. And also, if you don't agree and you want to challenge back, please do so. You know life should be about there's more than one version of the truth. So anyone who disagrees or sees things from a different angle, embrace that and let's have a conversation about it. Love it.

Dr. William Attaway:

We'll have all those links in the show notes, Richard. Thank you for your.

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