Catalytic Leadership

3 Team Appreciation Strategies That Actually Keep People Around

• Dr. William Attaway • Season 3 • Episode 107

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Hiring isn’t the real problem; retention is. And if you’re scaling past 7 figures, turnover doesn’t just slow you down... it sabotages momentum, culture, and profitability.

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Paul White, psychologist, bestselling author, and co-creator of The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace with Dr. Gary Chapman. For over 20 years, Paul has helped businesses, from startups to household names like Pepsi and Caterpillar, eliminate disengagement, stop recognition fatigue, and build sustainable, high-performing cultures.

We unpack 3 proven team appreciation strategies that aren’t about birthday parties, bonuses, or gift cards. These are tactical, data-backed ways to increase team loyalty, fix remote culture gaps, and reduce the hidden cost of churn - without adding complexity.

If you lead a remote or hybrid team, or you're noticing drops in morale or ownership as you scale, this one’s for you.


⏱ Chapter Breakdown

Timestamp | Chapter Title
00:00 | Intro: Dr. Paul White’s Work With Teams
02:09 | From Psychology to Business: Paul’s Origin Story
04:34 | What 450,000 Employees Taught Us About Appreciation
06:32 | Why Recognition Alone Doesn’t Keep Top Talent
07:59 | The Flawed Gift Card Culture and HR Fatigue
10:09 | The True Cost of Missing Appreciation
13:23 | Appreciation as Culture Oil: A Practical Metaphor
15:05 | Words of Affirmation: What Works, What Backfires
18:35 | Remote Teams: How to Build Loyalty from Afar
21:49 | Building Connection Without Wasting Time
23:18 | Retention and Profitability: The Unseen Link
30:09 | What Paul’s Wrestling With: Succession and Scale



📚 Books Mentioned

  • The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace by Dr. Gary Chapman & Dr. Paul White
  • Integrity by Dr. Henry Cloud
  • Trust by Dr. Henry Cloud

To get access to a free sample of the Motivating by Appreciation Inventory, a group report, and insights on how this system is working inside companies like Pepsi and Caterpillar, email Paul directly at yesdrpaul@gmail.com. Just mention this podcast in the subject line.


Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.

Connect with Dr. William Attaway:

Dr. William Attaway:

It is such an honor today to have Dr Paul White on the podcast.

Dr. William Attaway:

Dr White is a psychologist, author, speaker and consultant who makes work relationships work. For the last 20 years he's improved numerous businesses, government agencies and nonprofit organizations by helping them to reduce the level of cynicism and negative communication within the workplace, eliminate supervisors' frustration from not knowing how to effectively encourage their staff, learn how to communicate authentic appreciation versus that going-through-the-motions recognition, and understand and successfully manage the stress level experienced in today's demanding environment. Dr White is the co-author of the book the Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace, written with Dr Gary Chapman, author of the number one New York Times bestseller, the Five Love Languages. Based on their extensive research and expertise, dr White and Dr Chapman have developed a unique way for organizations to motivate their employees that leads to increased job satisfaction, higher employee performance and enhanced levels of trust. Their motivating by appreciation inventory and appreciation at work training resources have been used by numerous corporations, colleges and universities, medical facilities, schools, nonprofit organizations and government agencies. Dr White, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Intro video:

Hey, thanks for having me. William Glad to be here. Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, Dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway:

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader.

Dr. Paul White:

How, did you get started? Well, it sort of depends which starting point. But I'm a psychologist by training and for a lot of my career I focused on evaluating students that have learning difficulties, adhd and dyslexia and that. But I grew up in the context of a family-owned business outside of Kansas City and some friends of mine knew of that and I'm a little bit more business-minded than most psychologists, and they kept running into family issues as they consulted with businesses, because 85% of all the companies in the US are family-owned. And so I started working as a family coach with successful family businesses across the country dealing with family issues, largely around business succession and wealth transfer.

Dr. Paul White:

And in the midst of that I was in North Carolina talking with the father and CEO of a company and asked him you know, how's the sort of plan going of the succession? He said it's going well, my son's stepping up, I think it'll work. And I walk across the hall and asked the son the same question and he said this is a disaster, it's never going to work, I can't ever please my dad, and which I could understand. And but at the same time my wife and I were reading the Five Love Languages by Dr Chapman and I thought I wonder if this might be applicable in family businesses. So I pursued Dr Chapman, took me a year to get through to him and finally met with him and pitched the idea and we started working on the project of sort of transferring the concepts of the five love languages to work and you know, appreciation seemed to be the main concept and then developed the online assessment which we've had over 450,000 people take, developed a training process and then other books as well, and that's what I do now.

Dr. William Attaway:

And then other books as well, and that's what I do now, and so I enjoy it and get to learn a lot about that large. What are some of the things that you've learned as you've done this research? Are there things that have surprised you?

Dr. Paul White:

Well, you know. So the book originally came out in 2011. We wrote it I think we wrote it in 2014, and then 2019, 2023. And so there's been lessons along the way. One of the first lessons was we started out focusing on leaders and managers, teaching them how to communicate appreciation to their team members, but quickly learned that employees want to know how to show appreciation to their colleagues and also they value being appreciated by their coworkers, and so we sort of switched up the model from focusing just on leaders to teaching team members how to show authentic appreciation to one another, and that was really a key piece, because that's sort of what makes it sing. It's too much responsibility just for leaders to have on their shoulders, to have to show appreciation to everybody on their team. So that was a lesson.

Dr. Paul White:

Also, over time, we've learned that there are generational differences, you know, and that just knowing a person's language of appreciation and there are five, they're the same in name as the five love languages words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, tangible gifts and physical touch, which is an interesting one in our culture, not so much in others, but just knowing the language really isn't sufficient that there are quite differences of action. So words is probably the most obvious one is that some people you know like to be called up in front of a group, sort of like an employee recognition. You know programs recognized in front of a big group, but we found that at least 40% of the workforce absolutely do not want to go up in front of a large group and it's actually a negative for them, and so if you just do that for everybody, you actually aren't accomplishing your goal. So there's that. Also. There's differences between quality time.

Dr. Paul White:

Those of us that are a little bit older tend to focus on focused attention from our manager or supervisor. It makes us feel valued. For younger workers, I tell older managers, just because you have a team member that has quality time as their language doesn't mean they want to have time with you. You may be wonderful, but they're focused on their peer relationships and hanging out with their colleagues. Our assessments in nine different languages now, and just cross-cultural differences too, that GIFs really don't carry a lot of weight as far as encouraging people at a personal level, and that less than 10% of employees really want to be shown appreciation through GIF gifts and they prefer the other languages.

Dr. William Attaway:

So just some lessons like that. You know, when I first heard you talk about this we met at a conference several months ago and when I first heard you talk about this, that surprised me, because so many companies and organizations have these recognition programs, or you know they're focused all around gifts, gift cards, gift certificates. You know they're focused all around gifts, gift cards, gift certificates. You know, maybe a plaque or something like that, and that was such a small percentage of people who were motivated by that. And yet that's the number one thing I see, particularly in the corporate world.

Dr. Paul White:

Right, yeah, and it's interesting, there's sort of a symbiotic, maybe parasitic, relationship between HR professionals and reward and recognition companies. I'm a straightforward talking Midwesterner, but that's all right, just that. It's sort of easy to do. I mean you get points and all this and you turn it in and the gift you don't even give the gift. The person chooses their own gift. It's sort of like at my birthday saying, oh Paul, what did you get? Thanks for the birthday gift. I mean it doesn't have a lot of meaning. But also I mean the reward recognition companies. That's how they make their money right, because they skim off the top of the cost that they charge you versus what it costs them. And so, whereas our model can be grown over an organization, but it's in a different way in that we train teams and people, so most reward recognition companies say you know, we don't really want to deal with the people aspect, we just want to do it via, you know, platforms and technology.

Dr. William Attaway:

Absolutely. You make a distinction between recognition and appreciation. Would you flesh that out a little bit for our listeners?

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, you know, initially when I came into this, I came in sort of the side door, not being part of HR and that kind of stuff, and I said, you know, as we did research, we found that, you know, things weren't working because employee engagement continues to be low and turnover is high. And I said, you know, this recognition thing isn't working. And the HR people said, yeah, we know, but we don't know what else to do. So but recognition really is about performance. It's, you know, reaching goals, doing your work well, and that's good. Oh, my sorry.

Dr. Paul White:

What happens is that recognition is good for performance. I mean, it started in the 50s and 60s and has developed well, and so we want people to answer the phone cheerfully, we want them to get reports done on time. The problem is that recognition tends to only touch the top 10 or 15 percent of any organization. So you've got this big middle group of people 50 to 60 percent of team lack of feeling valued and appreciated as one of the main reasons that they're leaving, and so you sort of are setting yourself up for this revolving door and we believe that appreciation can be for you know, doing work well, but it also includes just the person that employees are people, that we have value beyond just what we produce. We're not just production units, but we have characteristics and qualities that are important, not really directly related to performance.

Dr. Paul White:

Personally, I like to work with cheerful people more than you know grumpy people. I really enjoy your laugh, you've got a great laugh. I've got a team member that just she's, you know, sort of bright and cheery and comes in and smiles and it doesn't have anything to do with her performance, but she sort of lightens the room when she comes in, you know. And so there's that. And also we can appreciate people for things not related to work. I mean that maybe when your team members is training for a half marathon, you say, wow, bob, I'm just super impressed with your self-discipline to, you know, to train and make this happen.

Dr. Paul White:

Or maybe a team member who's really committed to her kids and say you know, maria, I'm just impressed with how much you love your kids and you're committed to them, you know, is that about work? No, is it about her? Yes. Does that build a sense of connection and loyalty? Absolutely, and so, and more and more. I mean we're seeing highest levels of loneliness reported by employees, especially younger males. We're also seeing a sense of disconnectedness. You know, partly with remote hybrid work, and we, through our appreciation training, because we do it with team members, we help create connectedness. That then increases people staying. And we've got lots of research in our book 50 research citations showing it improves productivity, profitability, customer ratings, all that kind of stuff.

Dr. William Attaway:

It's such a different way of thinking about this, and that's one of the things that I loved when I first heard you talk about it. It's a different way of thinking about it, but it's actually data-driven. This isn't just saying well, you know, it's a theory, we think this is what's working. We, you know, we feel it in our gut. No, this is research data. And again, a sample of 450,000 people. This isn't just like we picked 10 people and built this whole thing on what we learned.

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, yeah, and I tell you know I mean, one of the misconceptions leaders have about appreciation is that the goal is just to make people feel good and yeah that's.

Dr. Paul White:

We hope that that happens. But really the goal is to create a more functional, healthy organization, because when people feel valued and appreciated organization because when people feel valued and appreciated, things go better. I mean, I use the image of oil in a car engine. If you don't have oil, there's friction, there's heat, takes more energy to get things done and we see appreciation as sort of the oil in the machine of the organization that helps team members work together better. There's less conflict over stupid little things like you know whether they you know what size their monitor is or where they got a window or their schedule or anything, and it allows the time and energy of people within the organization to focus on the mission of the organization rather than these secondary side issues.

Dr. William Attaway:

You know, when I took the motivating by appreciation inventory these secondary side issues you know, when I took the motivating by appreciation inventory, it indicated that my language of appreciation is words of affirmation, which is not a surprise because, having taken the love language inventory some 20 plus years ago, it's the same thing and my wife and I have done this together and learned a lot about our marriage through that, so it didn't surprise me with this inventory. But words of affirmation in the workplace looks a little bit different than it does in a marriage or in the home. This is. The most of the people in the inventory like the largest percentage, I should say had words of affirmation as their language of appreciation. How would you describe that? What does that look like when it's lived out and what are some things people need to avoid saying?

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah. So first of all, yeah, words of affirmation is the single largest language of appreciation chosen by people, but it's less than half of employees. So if you're only using words, you're missing over half of your team. But the latest data shows 44% of employees have that and it's different in that one.

Dr. Paul White:

I think the biggest mistake people make is that they're vague. They say you know, glad you're on the team. Good job, you know way to go that kind of stuff, glad you're on the team, good job, you know way to go that kind of stuff. And we actually did a poll and found that that phrase, good job is one of the ways people don't want to hear, because it's so vague in general that you know anybody can say it doesn't take any really time or energy to create. And the key is to be specific and we teach a model of use a person's name. We like to hear a name and if you're writing it, spell it correctly, because it doesn't feel real personal if you misspell their name. That's true. Be specific about what you value, either about them or what they've done. And third, why it's important, either to you, to your organization or to your client. So it might be. Brian, thanks for getting your reports done and in on time to me. That's helpful to me because then I can take that along with the other information and get my report together without being stressed. You know about the deadline to get to my boss, and so be specific. So be specific.

Dr. Paul White:

You know I'm going to be writing a blog about introversion and appreciation, because about half, maybe a little under half, of people in the world are introverts, meaning specifically that communicating and interacting with people drains them emotionally. You can actually be a shy introvert. You can be an outgoing introvert. It's just that it drains you Um and so to show appreciation face to face, verbally uh, for an introvert is is more of a mountain than it is for for me as an extrovert. And so one of the nice ways about words is that you can do it through writing.

Dr. Paul White:

Right, and in the old days it was a handwritten note. You know. We now know that for younger employees, especially 20 something guys, they don't really give a rip about a handwritten note. It's. It's more about the speed at which you get back to them. If you think about their culture, that's a pretty fast moving pace. And so to give them feedback about, you know, either a task that they've done or something that you noticed within the first day or two is more important than handwriting something. Get it to them in a week or later, because then it's just in history for them. So it doesn't always have to be face-to-face in it, but it really does need to be specific.

Dr. William Attaway:

That's really great advice and very tactical, and I hope our listeners are capturing. This is very practical stuff that you can take and apply. This is not just theory, this is not just something up in the clouds, but this is something you can take and go. This is not just theory, this is not just something up in the clouds, but this is something you can take and go use with your team now, this week, and I hope that you will so. 44% words of affirmation what is the next largest gift that you see in the workplace?

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah.

Dr. Paul White:

The next one is quality time, and that's about 26%, so one out of every four people, and, like I said, it differs across generations largely that for some people it is focused attention, because time really is our most valued resource now, and so getting individual time and focused attention helps a person feel valued.

Dr. Paul White:

But for others it's doing things together with their colleagues, whether that's working together on a project or just being able to hang out and have a sense of camaraderie, because, again, research has shown, people feel pretty alone at work and disconnected, and in fact we've done research over the years, even pre COVID, with remote employees and hybrid employees. And how do you show appreciation, like even quality time, when you're not in the same place? You know, and the answer to that is you set up a time to talk to them because you don't have those chance encounters, you don't see them in the break room or coming in from the parking lot or whatever, and so you're proactive, but also that the communication is about them as a person. It's not just checking in about their project and what they're working on, but it's the kind of thing that you know they used to call water cooler chat you know where you know you talk about like I just heard on the radio that the Indiana Pacers upset you know Oklahoma City in the first game of the NBA.

Dr. Paul White:

You know you chat about that, or you know something's going on. You know you're coaching your kids soccer team and you know they ask about that or just talk about the weather kinds of things. So it's creating a personal connection, not just talking about work.

Dr. William Attaway:

That does get challenging when it comes to remote teams. You know I've led remote teams now for almost a decade and it's just so incredibly different and you have to be so much more intentional as you're taking this and beginning to apply it and a lot of our listeners lead remote teams, sometimes from all over the world. As you're thinking about cross-cultural people, cross-cultural team members, are there things you need to be mindful of when thinking about appreciation in that type of a context?

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. A few years ago I was engaged by one of the big tech companies to try to help a remote international team learn how to communicate appreciation with one another, and one of the key factors is that they had never met each other in person and it really was sort of like a task force team that comes together for a while and I said we can try, but I'm not sure it's going to work, because, from my point of view, appreciation really is based on a relationship. You can recognize somebody for performance and a task, that's fine, but to try to appreciate somebody for who they are, when you really haven't spent any time, it just feels weird. You usually miss the mark, and so I think you have to be careful about that.

Dr. Paul White:

One of the key things that we've learned is that, like part of my team is remote, is that we'll have a team meeting and part either part of the team meeting or some actual the whole team meeting is just about catching up with one another. What's going on in their lives, and is it productive? Uh, from one point of view, you know, uh, your eos, people may say no, but, but on the other hand, it's. It creates relational connection and when we are connected we understand each other better, we communicate better and, you know, you avoid sort of those miscommunications that then wind up having to deal with this problem down there. So ultimately I think it's worth it to take the time to do that.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that. I love that. I completely agree. I think that when you see, when people feel seen as an actual 3D human being instead of as a cog in the machine of the business, you know, instead of just as what they do, but they're seen as a person, they lean in. They lean in and I have seen this increased retention on teams which in turn, always translates to the bottom line, because we know high churn on team members always translates to high churn with clients and all of that impacts the bottom line. So everything you're talking about really does have a bottom line reflection at the end of the day, absolutely.

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, yeah, and I mean the cost of. I mean there's several research studies that, depending on the level of the position, it's at a minimum a two times the salary of the position, is the cost of the turnover and it goes up to five and 10 times the higher up in the organization you are. So it's critical to pay attention to that.

Dr. William Attaway:

I think this topic is one that is worth diving into for every one of our listeners, and I'm going to encourage you to pick up this book the Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace. We'll have a link in the show notes. I want you to check this out. I want you to learn as much as you can about how to apply this inside your team, inside your business, and we're going to talk about some ways that you can do that in just a minute.

Dr. William Attaway:

Dr White, I want to turn to you for just a second. You know you're leading a very successful business. You're leading a team that is focused on pouring into so many different companies, so many different organizations, and trying to help them to get better, trying to help them to learn how to do this, and that ripples that impacts so many people. Leading at the level that you lead at requires a lot of you. How do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the new skills, the new leadership skills that your team and your business and your clients are going to need you to have in the days to come?

Dr. Paul White:

You know, there's a couple of levels to that question. One is I have to take care of myself, because if I don't take care of myself, it doesn't matter what I know, I'm not going to relate to other people very well. So over time I've learned what is renewing to me. I mean, I love nature, I love music, I love solitude more than I used to. I'm an outgoing guy, but my work life is people and words and so, man, I love to fish and go hike and that kind of thing, and so I've got to keep that going as well as time with my wife and my marriage. And then, secondly, you know, not every great idea is a new one, or, conversely, not every new idea is a great one.

Dr. Paul White:

There are a lot of classic books in leadership and business that are helpful still, and, yeah, we got to keep up with the new stuff and I try to do that. I'm overwhelming at times. But also I get input from my friends, my colleagues, who are business leaders and sort of listen to what they're reading and what do you find impactful, and sort of let them filter through some stuff, versus me trying to read everything that comes out and so get recommendations from them. That's real helpful and part of it also is staying in touch with the frontline worker. I mean, if you talk to leaders all the time, you get leaders perspectives, but that is not the same as somebody that's on the floor.

Dr. Paul White:

Let me tell you my family the factory and you know it wasn't. I told my dad, you know one of his goals was to teach me the need for an education and he did that because most of the people I was working with were maybe high school grads and there's nothing wrong with that, but just that I didn't want to work at the back of a conveyor belt the rest of my life. But there's issues there that leaders often really aren't in touch with or don't give enough credence to. I think that when you're interacting with the frontline employees, you learn.

Dr. William Attaway:

I love that. I think learning to ask the right questions and listening these are two of the most underutilized tools in a leader's tool bag, but when you leverage them, when you use them, it's amazing what you learn, particularly from the frontlines. So, so true, you're thinking about the books that you've learned from. Maybe it's a classic, maybe it's a newer one, but is there one that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? Hey, this one had an impact on me.

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, there are lots, obviously, but one that I just keep coming back to is one called Integrity by Henry Cloud. I love that book and I tell people the first chapter is worth the price of the book because he uses this image of a boat creating two wakes right. One is the wake of impact on people and the other is getting things done and gold. Yes, and he gives the image that you can get things done, get things done but run over people. You got, you know, a wake of sort of body parts behind you and unfortunately, you know, I think our culture leans that way. But just integrity in the title is not so much about being honest and truthful but having integration of your life and who you are, and dealing both with people and tasks, and so I find that a good book, just as a nice foundational principle.

Dr. William Attaway:

That is a great read, and his newer one, trust. I just finished not long ago and, man, that one really hit me hard, you know, I mean I love Cloud. I've learned from him for decades now, but how to recognize when trust is broken and learn how to rebuild it relationally and when it should be rebuilt and when it shouldn't my goodness, what a phenomenal teacher and writer. I love that, so thanks for sharing that. That's so, so good. So, leading a business of the size that you have, there are always obstacles, there are always challenges, there are always things that could demand your attention at any given moment.

Dr. Paul White:

Ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.

Dr. William Attaway:

Oh, ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.

Dr. Paul White:

No challenges, no problem, it's just been up and, to the right, the whole journey right, that's right, that's right, cash is just sort of it comes out of the sky and floats down on the boat, so anyway.

Dr. William Attaway:

Let's just say hypothetically, let's say there was a challenge or an obstacle. Yeah, thinking across the landscape, and you see the whole board as the leader Thinking across the board. If I had the ability to snap my fingers and solve one problem in your business, what would you want that to be?

Dr. Paul White:

Well, for me, being honest, is that it's the issue of succession and moving forward.

Dr. Paul White:

I don't plan to retire full-time anytime in the near future, but I would like to work a little less and there's certain roles and responsibilities that as a small business owner because we really have a small team, we only have four employees Now we got lots of other team members out there but as far as just part of the direct part of the organization, being able to hand off certain roles of running the business so I can continue to speak and write and so forth that I enjoy and comes fairly easy for me.

Dr. Paul White:

And, and you know, you can be intentional and we've been intentional, but there is just it's. It takes a lot of time and effort and energy and things change over time, you know, I mean the economy and the culture and so forth, and so, um, just being able to if you want to snap your fingers, go ahead, man. And I find, as I talk to my friends, I had breakfast with a friend yesterday. It had the same issue, totally different industry, but just being able to identify and find that person to step in and develop that process, that's the core issue for us right now. That's good.

Dr. William Attaway:

And succession takes so much intentionality and I watch so many senior leaders get to the point where they do want to step back. But succession takes a lot of planning Right back. But succession takes a lot of planning and without that preparation and the intentionality that you bring to that, so often you're trying to catch up and you're in a catch-up season. So I love that you brought that out. Thank you for that, dr White.

Dr. William Attaway:

This has been such a great conversation and we could go for another hour easily. I know and continue to dive into this. But I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to dive into this. But I just I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn more about you and more about the five languages of appreciation in the workplace. How can they take this? How can they apply this in their business? How can they apply this with their team? What are some next steps for them? How can they connect with you? What are some ways they can take a next step?

Dr. Paul White:

Yeah, I think the best thing is let me just give you an email address that they can write me and I'll send some resources. I'll send a sample of our assessment and the group summary, and so the email is yesdrpaul at gmailcom. So yes, d-r-p-a-u-l at gmailcom, and then just put your name or the name of the podcast in the subject line and then I'll send sample reports of that we were written about in the New York Times, of work that we've done with a mining company which you wouldn't see as being the most hotbed for appreciation, but how we helped the culture there. And I'll see what else I can include there for your team, maybe a discount code for the book as well.

Dr. Paul White:

So, yeah, I think the assessment is key because finding out how somebody wants to be appreciated, if you ask them, it's sort of a weird question. It's like I don't know, tell me thanks, you know, finding out how somebody wants to be appreciated, if you ask them, it's sort of a weird question. It's like I don't know, tell me thanks, you know. So you don't get much. But being able to do that and we've kept the cost of the assessment low so that you know organizations like Caterpillar and Miller Coors and Pepsi are using it with frontline employees, which is encouraging to them and learning how to build a culture of appreciation. So, yeah, that's the yes, dr Paul at GMO would be the best way.

Dr. William Attaway:

Perfect, we'll have all those links in the show notes. Cool, dr Paul. Thank you for your generosity today and your kindness in sharing so freely from your journey and about what your research is uncovering and how it can impact so many people.

Dr. Paul White:

You bet. Thanks for having me.

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