The Time-for-Money Trap That’s Stalling Your Growth—and How to Escape It

If revenue is rising but your calendar keeps getting tighter… you may not be scaling. You may just be stuck in the time-for-money trap—and no matter how high your agency climbs, that model will always have a ceiling.

In this episode, I sit down with Eric Burns, founder of Flowers Capital, to unpack what it truly takes to escape that trap and build a business that grows without demanding more of you. Eric’s story isn’t about quick wins or overnight success—it’s about trading hustle for structure, urgency for vision, and effort for scalable impact.

We talk about how to break out of reactive leadership, how Eric used strategic partnerships to replace income with leverage, and what lessons from 17 years as a fire department lieutenant taught him about high-trust, high-performance teams.

If your business relies on you to keep running—if you feel the tension between success and burnout—this conversation will show you what it means to stop solving every problem and start building a company that scales without your shadow over every step.

What We Cover:

• What the time-for-money trap really looks like at 7+ figures
• How to build systems that generate freedom, not just income
• Why reactive leadership keeps teams stagnant and stressed
• How to use mastermind connections to build scalable partnerships
• The leadership shift from firefighting to vision-setting
• Tactical ways to lead through structure instead of stress

📚 Books & Resources Mentioned

• The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber
• Be Your Future Self Now by Dr. Benjamin Hardy
• The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho
• FlowersCapital.com – Free guide: “12 Pitfalls to Avoid in Your Next Real Estate Deal”

Connect with Eric Burns
To connect with Eric, just head over to flowerscapital.com—he’s got a free resource there on 12 pitfalls to avoid in your next real estate deal that’s worth checking out.

Chapters

• 0:37 From Firefighter to Founder: Eric’s Unlikely Start
• 3:50 The Wake-Up Call: Still Trading Time for Money
• 7:15 Commercial Real Estate and the Power of Passive Leverage
• 9:51 How the Right Mastermind Can Reshape Your Business
• 12:48 Leadership Growth Through Hard Conversations
• 16:35 From Chaos to Clarity: Building a Business That Doesn’t Depend on You
• 24:14 Final Thoughts and How to Connect with Eric

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I am so excited today to have Eric Burns on the podcast. Eric's the founder of Flowers Capital. He's a Cincinnati-based entrepreneur and commercial real estate professional. After graduating with a degree in finance and a short stint in the corporate world, eric's first turning point came when he joined the Cincinnati Fire Department. Serving as a lieutenant for 17 years shaped his character. He gained many of his best values during that time, including accountability, honesty and self-improvement. In 2013, eric ventured into real estate investing. He honed his skills and built a successful residential real estate portfolio. His ability to identify promising opportunities and his acquired skill set made the transition into commercial real estate very logical. Driven by his passion for helping others to achieve financial freedom, eric founded Flowers Capital With a focus on quality, diversification and long-term success. He aims to guide investors toward a brighter financial future. Eric, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Eric Burns: 1:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great to be on, thank you.

Intro / Outro: 1:14

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:31

Hey Eric, I would love for you to share some of your story with our listeners. I hit some of the hot points, but I'd love to hear more, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader.

Eric Burns: 1:43

Absolutely Most of my development as a leader came as a lieutenant in the fire department, and it was honestly something I kind of had to sort out for myself and they didn't do at that time it was long enough to go, they didn't do like officer training class or anything for us, and so we were kind of learning on the fly, kind of figuring out what worked, and you know, I just kind of had to muddle my way through it. So I figured out some ways not to do it. I also figured out some really uh, some good ways to really uh interact with my crews and the people that were working under me and really uh lead, lead as in and build a yeah kind of just build a really solid foundation of trust as well. Hmm, I love that, yeah.

Dr. William Attaway: 2:33

You know, learning what not to do is pretty underrated in my opinion. I think I believe you can learn from anybody, sometimes what to do and sometimes what not to do. I think that can be incredibly valuable.

Eric Burns: 2:45

Absolutely, and, as I'm making mistakes along the way, one of the things that people really responded to was just transparency and accountability. If I was wrong, if I didn't handle a situation correctly, I really went out of my way to remedy it at uh, right away, and the way I did that was just admitting my own uh, my own fault in the matter and just be committed to evaluate myself and change. And I think, when people see you doing that, that you're holding yourself accountable. I think that I think that's a standard that they pick up on and they start doing the same. And when they're getting the, you know, when they're getting the honesty and you know, and they have a leader that they're looking to, that's, you know, willing to, you know, make mistakes and fix them, then they're a lot more willing to do the same as well, I think.

Dr. William Attaway: 3:43

You know, going from a lieutenant as a firefighter to real estate, that's a pretty big leap. What led you to such a dramatic career change?

Eric Burns: 3:56

Yeah. So I honestly had started a few side hustles over the years that's just kind of something firemen do and none of them really panned out. None of them kind of took off like I'd hoped and really just looking to secure a solid financial future. And I was at the kitchen table and the guys were talking about their rental properties and it sounded like they were going well and I thought, well, maybe that'll be my next thing. So I bought up student housing rental as my first property, as a side hustle, and I didn't know how to be a landlord or anything like that, and I went ahead and figured that out and it went well. So then I just kind of kept going down the rabbit hole. I started renovating two families and things like that, and that's kind of when it hit me that I was really trading my time for money and that's my last pivot into commercial real estate.

Eric Burns: 4:47

Was that realization and I really took the leap just as the next right move. And that's the theme in my story. Every pivot I've had has just been looking at the situation and looking at the next best move I can make. And even you know, even if it's, you know, maybe a little bit out of my wheelhouse and you know just kind of take the leap and learn and and that's kind of, and that's kind of how I niched down was you know just kind of the next right thing, over and over again and and really it's just, you know, I think things work out if you're willing to step out of your comfort zone.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:26

You know, one of the things I appreciate is you often talk about failing forward and the importance of seeing failure not as the end of the road but just as a part of the journey.

Eric Burns: 5:38

Absolutely, and I really enjoy reframing the failures as lessons and I think it's perspective and there's a lot of things I've done over the years that I can look back and say, oh man, that was a big mistake, I'd have done it different. Or I can say, whoa, that was a good learning experience. And you know I didn't handle. You know, you know I didn't handle this. You know this renovation right and it took so long. And you know I didn't handle this. You know this renovation right and it took so long. And dah, dah, dah, dah dah.

Eric Burns: 6:07

You know it wasn't a mixed state, it was just a learning lesson that I can move in, you know, and move into the next one and just get a little bit better every time, just by kind of not not really beat, you know, just by not beating myself up and and just being okay with not being perfect, and not that anybody likes to mess up and likes to fail, but if you're really kind of pushing yourself to a higher level and trying to excel in any area, it's just bound to happen and you can look back and think you're a terrible person.

Eric Burns: 6:43

Or you can look back and evaluate and just kind of look at the situation and be really neutral about your mistakes that you made and don't take it personal and just look back and say, hey, these are some areas that I can improve on and do it. And then the next time you do, you know, then the next time you do your next remodel, there'll be other things that come up that need improvement. And I think it's just that constant reevaluation of your, of yourself, and not not letting a failure keep you down, but using it as a way to you know, to kind of just grow a little bit at a time. It'll run over again.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:23

Consistency. I like that that's really good. So what moved you? You said the next right thing was commercial real estate. Talk me through that because people who focus on residential. Typically they don't see commercial as their next step. I'd love to hear how you made that determination.

Eric Burns: 7:43

Yeah, so I really tried to be a lifelong learner, just in general, and I love going down, I love learning something new. And when I started looking into commercial real estate I saw that it was scalable and that there was an opportunity to have passive income and really not have to trade my time for money. And a lot of the barriers of entry that would have kept me from it are eliminated by, you know, being able to partner with really good sponsors and really good markets. You know I can get into markets all over without having to do the legwork necessarily to get my market share or anything like that. But really the scalability and it seemed like the next right move because I knew doing renovations and even with the contractor it was really just a job. And I look back and I think about what I made hourly at my first job at the golf course when I was 13 all these years ago, and I'm doing the math and I thought, man, maybe I should go back to that job. I think $2.75 an hour is beating what I got going on now.

Eric Burns: 8:58

But yeah, just being curious led me to investigate commercial real estate. Curious led me to investigate commercial real estate and then, when I came to that realization. I was able to just kind of lean into that and keep learning a little more about. So I learned how to underwrite, then I learned how to deal with brokers and I learned about how to put together partnerships and I realized that my skill set was really more complimentary to raising capital for the other sponsors who were doing that way better than me. So, being able to partner with them and partner with the right people, I think it gave me the ability to really grow in the commercial space rather than have to, you know, really figure it out on my own, because it can be overwhelming, or it can be, or you can learn from other people and it can be a lot steeper learning curve.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:54

Well, and I think the people you surround yourself with contribute so much to your success or failure. You know it's finding the right people to run with the right people to learn from and learn alongside. What has your experience been like with community or with other entrepreneurs, maybe in a mastermind or something like that?

Eric Burns: 10:12

Yeah, I love that question because I'm a huge proponent of masterminds and surrounding yourself with community. And when we're out doing our entrepreneurial thing, not everybody really understands us. They see us beating our head against the wall and they go why are you doing this? And then your kind of only answer is like, well, I bet on myself a long time ago and now I kind of don't know what else to do. But other people you know, other entrepreneurs, get that. So I'm in a mastermind.

Eric Burns: 10:40

I've been a few different ones and every you know every you know every so often it's time to find a new one to grow into, and the one I'm in now is just really a great group of people. They're supportive. It helps me hold myself accountable to the progress I'm making, and most of my sponsors that I work with have come out of masterminds specifically just by knowing people on a very organic level first and then knowing I want to work with them, and then their markets are always good and their deals are always good, you know. So having that good sponsor relationship as the starting point really kind of lets that other stuff fall in place. But I think that any mastermind you're in, if it's the right one, whether it's a general entrepreneurship one, whether it's commercial real estate, real estate in general. I think it steepens your learning curve so much and you save years of trying to figure stuff out on your own. And you know, just having being surrounded with great people is an ancillary benefit.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:46

I would agree. I mean, the mastermind that I'm a part of personally has helped me to go so much farther than I think I would have gone to this point in my business. You know, because of the people around me who do speak those words of encouragement and challenge, who provide that accountability, who are going to ask questions, you know that maybe nobody else is asking.

Eric Burns: 12:08

And they serve as a great example. And I always like, when you're picking a mastermind, always find one where you're humble enough to ask the stupid questions. But if you find a mastermind where you can ask them and the other members don't make you feel stupid, you're onto something because you're with people that want to grow with you.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:26

That's right. So well said, so well said. So, thinking about the entrepreneurial journey, I love how you said you know you need to stop trading time for money. I think that is so often what I watch entrepreneurs do they build their business, but really what they're doing is they're building a job.

Eric Burns: 12:46

Absolutely.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:47

They're trading their 9 to 5 for a 6 am to 9 pm job, and you're working harder and longer than ever before, but you're not seeing the reward, you're not seeing the fruit, and so often the clarity that comes from setting goals is a big piece of that. What does goal setting look like for you?

Eric Burns: 13:10

So another question I love. I set huge goals for my 10 years and I read a great book, be your Future Self Now that Benjamin Hardy makes a great point regarding goal setting and that being that your 10 year goal should seem unachievable because your current self. It is unachievable. But if you start pursuing your goals and even consider them as hurdles because you're going to hit them and then you're going to need something bigger, but my five year self will be so much more capable that that 10 year goal will not seem as daunting and it might be too small. I might have to reset it at five years and it's just really.

Eric Burns: 13:51

I think when you do set those huge goals, it puts everything else in perspective, all the little things you're working on today. You know, you have an idea of what your, what your big goal is and you go okay. So it's just a little step right now. It's just one step in that direction, rather than all consuming, you know, on a daily basis. And to be able to just have that North Star and encourage you to do the day, encourage me to do the daily steps, the monotonous things that you know. There's always a monotony that we don't like and I and you know another great book I read is a mandatory reading for entrepreneurs. Out there is the E-Myth Revisited.

Eric Burns: 14:38

Such a great book when we were talking about entrepreneurs being unable to transition out of trading their time for money, and I highly recommend that book as mandatory reading because he does a really great job of explaining how a tradesman or the worker then all of a sudden has to be, you know, the manager and then the business owner and just really take on a new role and a new mindset at every turn. And whether you're you know whether you're going completely passive in an investment like commercial real estate, or you're scaling your business to be able to automate these things and free up your time and reallocate that either to the things that you excel at or to other things that matter too, like experiences and spending time with people and all these other things that time and money can afford you. Really, that's so good.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:38

You know when you think about your business and you know the leadership that you are providing in your business right now. So many of us can see with clarity of other people's businesses, but we have trouble with our own. If I could snap my fingers and right now solve one problem in your business, what would you want that to be?

Eric Burns: 15:59

Oh, investor sentiment, 100%, 100% investor sentiment. Other than that, personally definitely my organization being able to just kind of comfortably manage a day without going. Oh man, I forgot something, and that really kind of throws you off when you're doubling back and you forget something. So but yeah, maybe be a little more organized and you know things like that track better too.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:25

Absolutely. I love that. You know your business requires you to lead at a higher level today, eric, than it did three, four, five years ago, and that same thing is going to be true three, four, five years from now. Three, four five years ago, and that same thing is going to be true three, four, five years from now. So how do you level up with the new leadership skills that your business is going to require you to have? How do you stay on top of your game?

Eric Burns: 16:50

So valuing my leadership. You know, what I valued about my time in the fire department was that we were growing together and we were supporting each other. And to take that philosophy and say, you know, whether I'm working with an investor or a sponsor, to just say these are relationships that I want to grow in and and to use accountability, whether it's, you know, just evaluating myself and being able to grow along, or saying, or just saying, hey, I completely missed that email. I am, you know, I need to be more organized, you know, and take it to heart, be willing to change. But really I enjoy looking at those partnerships and investor relationships as areas to grow in.

Eric Burns: 17:43

So being able to write content and educate investors where they need it and kind of just work through this together so they can become better investors. I can become a better capital raiser and financial freedom is supposed to be fun. So if you're sitting there stressing about your passive investment, that kind of defeats the purpose. We want passive investment so we don't have to worry about that. That's right. So, yeah, just being able to take the loyalty, the honesty and things like that and build legitimate relationships that we can grow together in.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:28

That's really good If we could go back in time and we could talk to Eric, who was the lieutenant in the fire department. Knowing what you know now, what would you love to go back and tell yourself?

Eric Burns: 18:43

Don't hold things in, don't let things simmer. If there's an issue, address it immediately. And I think that a lot of the mistakes I made early on was not being comfortable having hard conversations and and kind of what I changed. It was a couple of years into my promotion and I realized, you know, if I have to sit someone down and talk about their performance and where they need to improve and why they're not doing a good job, it shouldn't be uncomfortable for me because I'm doing the right thing, you know, I'm being honest with them and so they're aware and they have the chance to improve when, if you're not willing to have tough conversations like that as a leader, then it's really difficult to get people to the level and and understand your expectations. And it shouldn't be uncomfortable for me because that is my job. That's the right thing to do.

Eric Burns: 19:40

If they're messing up like that and they're uncomfortable having that conversation, not my fault, you're the one messing up, right? I'm just here to let you know and always offer a solution, and I always ended those conversations with okay. So that's where we are, like, what do you need from me to help you do this and brainstorm and let them know that you know it's not just me yelling at you, cause I I really wasn't a yeller at all. Um, occasionally I did and I had to apologize for there there were a couple of times, but really, you know, I wasn't, uh, you know, that much of a yeller or, uh, you know, dictator or anything like that. Um, so I think, being able to be approachable like that, I think people you know really appreciated. You know, and they knew I meant it when I said what can I do to help you? You know I had a track record of trying to do right by them. Then they know, okay, well, he does care. Like it's not that wasn't as bad of a conversation as it could have been.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:45

Like it's not that wasn't as bad of a conversation as it could have been, and really, when someone's there to push you and offer help and guidance, then it's a little bit easier to kind of go in and do that same thing, you know, and really kind of evaluate and go from there. That's good. I think you keyed in on something that I find with the clients that I work with, that can be a real challenge, which is having difficult conversations, and so often people will run to one of two extremes they either run to avoidance and just hope that it will get better on its own.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:17

It never does right, or in an unhealthy way, they just go into full-on attack mode, and that's not healthy either, because then you're creating an adversarial relationship.

Eric Burns: 21:31

Absolutely.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:32

I love the way you describe it.

Eric Burns: 21:33

You're creating a relationship where they're not, you're really losing trust with them. Yes, and honestly, when I did go into nuclear mode or whatever, it was always because I let things simmer and I let them bother me and I didn't address it right away. So seeing a problem and just stepping right in, getting after it and fixing it is what helped my, helped me really kind of develop as a leading from the front rather than being a reactionary, I think.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:05

That's very good, if you know, and, to use the firefighting analogy this is what I often use with clients If your day as an entrepreneur is just moving from fire to fire, just putting out this fire, this fire, this fire, this fire, go to bed, get up tomorrow, do it all again. You are reacting, you are leading in a reactionary way and there's a better way to be proactive and helping people understand this and learn how to lead proactively to pre-decide what your priorities are, to prioritize, based on your long-term goals, not based on the fire of the moment or what somebody else thinks your priority should be.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:43

I think it's one of the skills that is so important for business owners.

Eric Burns: 22:47

Yeah, absolutely, and I think being able to look at a situation and if you can't identify what the expectations are really clearly, then it's likely that the people working for you don't know the expectations, and that's not fair either. That's exactly right To be abundantly clear about what you're expecting, when you're expecting it, how you're expecting it, and I think that solves a lot of problems up front. So when you come in and have those hard conversations, they know what you want from them and it's just a reminder, and it's really just a heads up and saying, hey, you can do a better job and I want you to do a better job because you're better than that and I know you're, I know you can do a better job. And really taking that hard conversation and transforming it into a rhetoric where there's a spirit of support and honesty really went a long way with me, as people were getting to know me, working for me, or just kind of understanding what I was about and developing that trust moving forward also.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:58

Love that You've mentioned a number of books so far. I'm just curious, as somebody who is a continual learner is there a book that's made a tremendous difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? Hey, if you haven't read this one, check it out.

Eric Burns: 24:14

Ooh, that's a tough one. I know my go-to commercial real estate book was the best ever syndication book. So if you're looking at commercial real estate, that's kind of the playbook as far as just kind of general books that you know I've read all the all these initial real estate books. A lot of people say rich dad, poor dad, and I don't think there was necessarily one book that changed my trajectory as far as that's concerned. But just being a lifelong, you know, just really committing to learning more than more than one single book Cause there was always. Even if it was a little bit redundant, there's always a little bit something you can find in it.

Eric Burns: 24:52

Always always kind of be on the search for, you know, learning something new and and and so it's something I enjoy. Definitely my favorite books probably Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, and that's. It's a. It's a fiction, but still a great one. I haven't read it.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:09

I gotta check that one out, oh yeah that's wonderful. Eric, this has been a fantastic conversation. This touched on so many different things and I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you and more about what you're doing. What is the best way for them to do that?

Eric Burns: 25:26

Absolutely Aside from LinkedIn. You can go to flowerscapitalcom and there's actually a free article on 12 pitfalls to avoid in your next real estate deal, to kind of wade your way through challenging times, you know.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:39

Love that. We'll have those links in the show notes.

Eric Burns: 25:41

Perfect.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:42

Eric, thank you so much for your time and your generosity today and sharing from what you've learned.