From Burnout to Breakthrough: Leadership Shifts Every Agency Owner Needs to Scale With Emily Sander

Scaling a digital agency isn’t just about better systems or sharper funnels—it's about who you're becoming as a leader. In this episode of the Catalytic Leadership Podcast, I sit down with Emily Sander, executive coach and author of Hacking Executive Leadership, to explore the critical leadership shifts agency owners must make to escape burnout and unlock sustainable growth.

Emily draws from her experience in high-pressure startup and corporate environments to reveal what separates stuck operators from visionary CEOs. We unpack time mastery strategies for agency owners, the real impact of imposter syndrome on business growth, and why adapting your communication style is a game-changer when leading a small team.

If you're a digital agency owner running on GoHighLevel, managing client expectations, and feeling stretched by team challenges and daily operations—this conversation will help you lead with greater clarity, focus, and resilience. These leadership frameworks aren't just theory—they’re a roadmap to scale your agency without sacrificing your sanity.

Connect with Emily Sander:

Learn more from Emily at nextlevel.coach, where you'll find free resources and details about her executive coaching programs. Follow her on LinkedIn or grab her book Hacking Executive Leadership on Amazon to dive deeper into these

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Chapters

• 1:14 Throwback Episode Introduction
• 1:47 Emily Sander's Leadership Journey
• 6:52 Defining Leadership and Self-Care
• 9:51 Mastering Time vs Managing Time
• 14:53 Effective Leadership Communication
• 18:04 Influential People and Superman
• 23:16 The Swizzle Concept
• 25:43 Navigating Change as a Leader
• 29:56 Advice for Aspiring Leaders
• 35:15 Episode Wrap-up and Resources

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:37

here in our third season of the Catalytic Leadership Podcast. We want to start introducing some older episodes. We want to do a throwback a bit to some episodes that I think will add value. Some of you many of you are new to the show and you haven't heard some of the interviews that we did early on. What we're going to start doing is introducing a few of those so that you can get a taste of what seasons one and two were like. So check out this episode A little bit of a throwback, but the information, the insights and the wisdom that are being shared are absolutely timeless.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:10

It is a joy and honor today to have Emily Sander with us on the podcast. Emily is a C-suite executive and founder of Next Level Coaching. As an ICF certified coach, she guides clients toward new perspectives that enable them to adapt and evolve as leaders. From being part of the testing team for the first Kindle device to being part of a six-person startup, to building a global client management team from scratch, emily has a lot of leadership experience that we can learn from. In her 15 years of experience across both Fortune 500 and startup companies, she has seen high-pressure work environments make or break a leader. She's currently serving as chief of staff for the CEO and the leadership team and is the author of the book Hacking Executive Leadership. Emily, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Emily Sander: 2:06

Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Intro/Outro: 2:10

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 2:26

I would love for you to share some of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and development as a leader. How did you get started?

Emily Sander: 2:37

Certainly well. You kind of gave my career highlight reel there. So, layered on top of that, you know I was started at large corporations as you mentioned Amazon, Microsoft and then I worked through a series of very small to medium businesses in the technology space and I was often I was almost always the youngest in my cohort. So I had this need to prove myself and definitely had many bouts of imposter syndrome and trying to be perfect and all these things, and so I was trying to always be the best leader that I could be and be the best leader for my team. So huge amount of time and energy and effort invested in becoming the best leader that I could be, which I think is I probably went after a little bit too hard in fact, but I think the general direction was a good one.

Emily Sander: 3:23

And so, as I kind of got to mid-career and kind of late in my career, it kind of settled out to be a more hey, let's have some fun with this, let's, you know, kind of grab this and have this be a good thing, and then let me give back. So, instead of like I need to gain this knowledge, I need to gain these skills, I need to become something I'm not to gain this knowledge. I need to gain these skills. I need to become something. I'm not. I always want to grow and learn and sharpen myself, of course, but it's more like how can I give, how can I give back, how can I help somebody out? And that's really what the catalyst for me to become a coach is.

Emily Sander: 3:55

At midpoint in my career, I was reflecting back on some jobs that I had at various companies and the thing that stood out wasn't the client escalation or the Q4 P&L numbers that we tried to hit. It was the one-on-one interactions I had with Jen to help her get a career advancement, or Christian to help him be more confident with presenting and speaking up at a team meeting. So that was definitely my trajectory, through leadership and being thrown off the deep end myself to pretty aggressive self-improvement, to really enjoying becoming the best leader that I could be and then reflecting back and giving that back to others.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:35

That's so good. I love that you have pivoted to say how can I give back, how can I not just be a reservoir of all this information, all this experience and knowledge? How can I give back, how can I not just be a reservoir of all this information, all this experience and knowledge, but how can I now begin to be a conduit to share that with other people? I love that. You've been in a lot of different environments and you have experienced your own leadership journey change and you've watched the leadership of so many other people. How would you define leadership?

Emily Sander: 5:00

Yeah, I mean leadership is really bringing out the potential in people, including yourself. So leadership is a large word, so you can talk about that. My world is the business world, right, so you can talk about that in terms of title and responsibility and how large a group you lead. But it's also an attribute, it's a personal characteristic. So every one of us is maybe leading our family or leading in our community. We're the CEO of our lives every day, so we're leading ourselves, and I think that it can be a title or an attribute.

Emily Sander: 5:31

So to me, a leader is someone who optimizes the potential. So that could be optimizing yourself and saying, hey, where do my strengths lie and how can I contribute the best? Let me align myself with that. And then, of course, in a business team sense, I'm in charge of these individual team members and my job as a leader is to optimize their potential. So if everyone is hitting on all cylinders and being at their best, it makes the team better, and so my success now derives not from what I can personally do, but what I could pull out of all these individual people and help the greater team.

Dr. William Attaway: 6:08

That's good. What do you think is an often overlooked aspect or an element of leadership?

Emily Sander: 6:16

Yes, great question. So self-care would be a huge one and this is a big word and you know it definitely got emphasized during COVID. But self-care would be a huge one and this is a big word and you know it definitely got emphasized during COVID. But self-care and some people and that's, you know, taking care of yourself, taking time away from work, recharging, you know, rejuvenating yourself, and a lot of people still think of this as weak or soft or, you know, woo-woo-y or nice to have, and it's just not.

Emily Sander: 6:42

It's such a critical component and the arguments I make to convince people are intuitively. Intuitively, if you wake up and you're exhausted, do you perform well that day? Do you make high-quality decisions? Are you fun to be around and interact with that day? Conversely, we've all woken up and felt that rested feeling. I was like, oh, I got some good sleep, I'm ready to rock this day, I can take on anything.

Emily Sander: 7:05

And so, as a business leader, you are often paid to make few high quality decisions in your day or in a week, and so you put yourself in best position to lead, and oftentimes it is taking care of yourself. And the other argument I make is oftentimes, when you step away and you might be just putting yourself in a different space or literally like moving yourself maybe to. You know, a quick, long weekend away. That new environment will help your brain think of creative solutions. So oftentimes you'll be like working and working and trying to think and like grinding and grinding and you get nowhere. And then you just step away and kind of zoom out and get some perspective and oh, that's what I need to do. That's an option I haven't thought of before. So it makes you a more creative, dynamic thinker. So it's not a nice to have, it's mission critical and it makes you better for the people around you. So I think self-care and, if you don't like that term, turbocharging or priming yourself to perform are good ones to use as well.

Dr. William Attaway: 8:06

Oh, that's fantastic. I've seen that to be true in my own life. When I'm stuck with a problem or stuck trying to figure out how to communicate something well and I just can't seem to get there, I'll go for a walk and I just different place, different pace just go for a walk 20, 30 minutes, come back and it is astounding. You're exactly right. It's astounding how often I come back and all of a sudden, there's the answer. There's the solution.

Emily Sander: 8:31

Yeah, and you hit on something too. So walk outside nature does a whole bunch of things for your kind of endorphins and systems and everything like that. And they say one of the best things you can do, one of the best activities you can do, is go walk outside with a friend, because you're in nature, you're moving around and as humans we're social creatures and so we're having that social interaction. So that's literally. It's very simple, but that's one of the best things you can do is to go outside and walk with a friend.

Dr. William Attaway: 8:57

Oh, that's good. You know, part of part of self-care, I think, is learning to manage your time. But you talk about going from managing your time to mastering your time. How do you do that?

Emily Sander: 9:14

Yeah. So a lot of people take some of the practical and tactical elements you can do for time management which are all fantastic, which I'm all for and then they miss the mental frameworks that you can use, which are equally, if not more, important. So tactical and practical just to mention a few, are like time blocking on your calendar and maybe doing like Pomodoro technique for like 25 minutes on an activity. Then take a break. Those types of things all for that. Whatever works for you there, do it. And then people often overlook the mental aspect. So we talked about identifying your strengths or identifying your team strengths, and that's important, not just because, like, hey, you know, you want to be self-aware and know what you do well and know what you don't do as well, but it's also a big component to mastering your time. So if you think about doing something you are not good at and you don't like, it takes you longer and it burns more of your mental and emotional energy. And so if you do that first and then you get to the thing that you're good at in your area of strength, you've, one, wasted a whole bunch of time or you've taken more time than you need to, and, two, you're emotionally drained and so once you get to that area of strength, you've already spent more time than you need to and you're not as sharp as you would be once you get to that. And so if you can identify your areas of strength and do all you can to play in that space as much as you can, and automate and delegate or outsource the rest, that's a really good way to master your time.

Emily Sander: 10:33

The second mental framework you can use is what I call green light, red light thoughts. So think of a car and you're a driver, and if you're having green light thoughts, you're saying things like I'm organized, I have this, I'm smart, I'm creative, I have solutions, I can do this, I'm good at this, those types of things which are like pushing on the gas pedal so you go forward. And red light thoughts are things like I'm so bad at this, I hate this, this is just drudgery. And of course, if you're saying things like that to yourself, you're kind of tapping on the brake or slamming on the brake and so you're not going to get as far, and so people often forget like, hey, I need to make sure I'm like firing on all cylinders here and I'm in a good space and I'm not working against myself. So those two mental frameworks are things that can take you from just managing your time to really mastering your time, are things that can take you from just managing your time to really mastering your time.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:24

Oh, that's good. What we say to ourselves matters so much. I had a counselor tell me once if you talk to other people the way you talk to yourself, you would have no friends. That's probably true. The words we use matter so much, and I love how you're framing that green light thoughts and red light thoughts. That's so helpful. It's simple, it's easy, it's sticky, it's memorable. I can grab onto it, and I think our listeners are going to grab onto that as well. It's not just communicating with yourself, though. Right, as a leader, you have to communicate with other people, and sometimes that's easier than it is others. How do you get better at that? Like, how have you gotten better at improving your communication?

Emily Sander: 13:17

Yeah, that's a good question. It's funny. I remember early in my career I assumed everyone liked to be communicated the way I wanted to be communicated to. It's like, hey, I like to kind of get things short and sweet and to the point and like pros and cons and all this stuff, and I assume that, like every other person on the planet would like that as well. And that was a false assumption. But I remember trying to communicate to this one team member and I was like this is just not getting through. And through mentoring and through conversations with people, it was oh no, people prefer different communication styles.

Emily Sander: 13:43

People are coming from a whole bunch of different backgrounds and experiences and just their personality and inclinations, and so you need to be, one, aware of how you like to communicate and, two, be aware that other people might not be like you. In fact, it's probably safe to say they're not exactly like you. And as a leader, it's really important to be able to flex your communication style to the audience or to the individual you're speaking to, and your job is not saying, hey, I want to like shove this through and just say it how I would say it. Your job is to communicate it in the most effective way. So it'll land and resonate with that person, which might be very circuitous and very odd to you, but if it lands and gets the message across that you intend to get across that person, you've been successful in that communication.

Emily Sander: 14:31

So, for instance, I like things short and sweet and to the point, so come to me with like bullet points and if I want more information, I'll ask you for more information. But I don't need like the whole story and once upon a time and a galaxy far, far away. I just want it short and sweet. But some people really need to tell that whole story and their verbal processors and they like to interact with you and they like to kind of soundboard things around and that's really important to them. And so if you have someone like that, you need to recognize that and say, okay, let me flex to their communication style and ask them questions about the story. I'm like what happened when I went over there Luke or twins, oh my gosh. So just kind of go along with them and and and communicate in their style.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:13

I love that I love that you're not that it's focused on how another person will receive it. How can I communicate the way that they receive it best? You know, I think so often leaders can get trapped into exactly what you said, thinking that everybody's just like me and I'm going to communicate it the way I would want to be communicated with. I mean, I guess you can try that, but self-focused leadership rarely gets you the results that others focused leadership does.

Emily Sander: 15:38

Yeah, and another note on that is if some people are listening going well, hey, like, do I have to change every single thing? Sometimes you do need to flex. However, sometimes it might be communicating your communication style Like, hey, I'm not meaning, I'm not upset with you, I'm not trying to be short with you, I'm just very task-oriented today. So I'd really appreciate if you could try to distill it down. That would really help me out, just because I'm kind of back-to-back meetings today, so just getting that out there. So it's not like, ooh, emily's honoring and isn't liking what I'm saying. It doesn't like me as a person type of thing. So it's not taken like that.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:14

Oh, that's good. That's good. You know, all of us have influential people in our lives, people who have really made a difference, have impacted us and helped make us who we are. Who has been an influential person in your life?

Emily Sander: 16:23

How did they impact you? Certainly, I mean, I'll start with my parents, just to give them a shout out. They were both very successful business people in their own rights and they, you know, led by example, hard work, gain knowledge, treat people with respect, act with integrity at all times. So that was the foundation and I often joke, you know, as a kid I thought, oh, when you're a grown up, you automatically get common sense and you get these types of things. And as I've gotten older, that is not the case. Common sense is a rarity these days. And so I just had two fantastic examples. So they set a great foundation. And then I always like to call out I had this great, great, phenomenal mentor early in my career, at a very pivotal point in my career, and I was this kind of fledgling upstart.

Emily Sander: 17:08

I was client facing and kind of known in the small company I was in, but nothing to write home about. And he said you know, emily, you could run a department one day. And I was like, are you talking to me right now? Like, are you like? I looked over my shoulders and did a double take because that was so far outside of my you know what I could conceive of what I could think of in my realm of possibility. But he was very accomplished, very professional, very, you know, seasoned, and I thought, well, if you think this, then I will allow that in my realm of possibility.

Emily Sander: 17:41

I don't believe it yet, but it's come in my orbit and then over time I was like, oh, maybe, maybe I could. Oh, actually, you know what I kind of like people and I kind of like being organized and helping out. So it planted a seed and it grew, and so I love, love, love that, because I've taken that and said, how can I do that for others? So how can I, one, see vision, so see a potential in someone that they might not see themselves? And then, two, how can I call that out of them and open a door? So he literally, you know, he gave me a shot at a role that I had on paper, no right taking, I was not qualified, I did not have experience, but he opened that door and I busted through it and ran through it and did well. But I always say, where is a door I can open for someone who couldn't open it for themselves or couldn't see that possibility for themselves? So a great way to pay it forward.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:29

That reminds me of something a mentor of mine, a leader that I admire and respect, has said over and over that a great leader uses their power, their influence, not for their own benefit but for the benefit of others. And Andy Stanley, when he says that he often encourages and challenges everyone listening, make sure you're focused on that, make sure you understand that you have incredible power to lift up, to encourage, to speak into other people. You know, I had the same thing. I had somebody who spoke into my life and saw something in me I did not see in myself and encouraged me to take a step that I never would have taken. And the rest is history now. Yeah, amazing, the power, people, that we have in the words that we use with others.

Emily Sander: 19:12

It can literally change the trajectory of someone's career and someone's life. So I mean someone listening now like literally think of someone in your life right now and you might think they're good at this, they're really good at this. I always think of them for this thing, or they're my go-to person. Don't assume they know. Don't assume they know that. So go tell them or go compliment them on that, just because some people have blind spots, some people are very self-critical and so you and someone else saying it out loud can be very powerful. So that's a takeaway you can think of right now.

Dr. William Attaway: 19:43

That's good. When we're young, our heroes often can come from the fictional world, and in doing some research on you, I discovered that you had a comic book hero that you really resonated with growing up. Who is that?

Emily Sander: 19:57

Yes, you've done your research, it's Superman. So Superman yes, that's funny. So Superman for all sorts of reasons. One, I'm adopted. So I was born in Seoul, south Korea, and adopted and raised in the States, and my dad was a huge comic book nerd, slash fan, and so for bedtime stories he would read me like his comic books, and I just resonated with Superman Like he. Just he was good, he fought for justice, he, you know, was good and never gave up and I liked those qualities about him. And you know, when I was kind of dealing with being adopted and not looking like you know other people and different from my parents, my dad said, you know, superman is adopted too and I was like, oh, he is, and I love that. And so Superman has always been kind of my hero for a variety of reasons.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:41

I love that. I think you can tell so much about a person by the people that they look up to. You know, even as kids. Even as kids, you know who are you drawn toward, and that captured my attention when I read that and I thought that's, that's fascinating. I too you can see over my shoulder I'm a little bit of a Superman fan, you know, since I was a kid and I keep that picture here in my office to remind me of you can do, you can do. You can do. You know what? There is not a cape hanging in my closet. I need that reality check. Sometimes I need that reminder, and that serves as a great reminder for that here, where I do most of my work.

Emily Sander: 21:26

I love that. Yeah, I love that.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:28

In your book you talk about the swizzle concept. What does that have to do with leadership?

Emily Sander: 21:34

Yeah, you don't think of the word swizzle when you think of leadership One, because it's made up by that word. It's a framework or a way to think of being a resourceful and creative problem solver, and so I'll just give you the genesis of the word. So I was talking to my team one day and I was kind of in a rush and kind of tired that day and we had to come up with a PowerPoint deck for our board meeting and we had three other PowerPoint decks we had used internally for like team meetings and company meetings. And I said, guys, like we have it, just swizzle the three decks into our new one, into the board deck. And by context they actually got what I meant, which was take the best and most relevant slides from those three previous decks and put them in a new deck and format it and make it flow well, but take the best of these and make a new PowerPoint deck. So that's how the word came about. I just blurted it out and then I've lifted and shifted that concept to a whole bunch of other areas. So an example I love to share is I was listening to a podcast and they were interviewing Floyd Mayweather, who is a champion boxer and you know he's very well known.

Emily Sander: 22:37

Apparently, I don't know anything about boxing. You don't want to see me train or do boxing at all. But they were interviewing him and asking him like why are you the best? Why are you the champion? Is it your nutrition? Is it your footwork? You know how many pushups do you do? All, do you do All these types of things?

Emily Sander: 22:56

And he finally said guys, it's none of that, it's my adaptability. It's the fact that I can adapt to any opponent, to any round, to any punch, the best. That's what makes me the champion. And I was driving at the time and I was like light bulb, light bulb, oh my goodness, that's amazing. While I'm not a boxer, I can swizzle that concept and lift and shift it to my world, which is business, and say am I being adaptable to the market, to my team updates, to this team meeting, versus this call, versus this individual who likes to communicate this way, versus that, am I being a champion in adaptability? And so you can swizzle these concepts from different areas of your life and, just like we talked about before, with stepping out and taking perspective, but also using the different things you see, and saying, oh, I can use that over here. You can use the Swizzle to help you be a creative and dynamic problem solver.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:46

That's so good, adaptability Boy. If the last couple of years have taught us nothing, is it not the value of adaptability, right? Yes, oh, my goodness, you've been in leadership for a long time. What is one of your greatest challenges that you've experienced in your leadership?

Emily Sander: 24:03

Helping other people, helping myself, transition through change. So navigate change, certainly in the last couple of years, but anytime. Really in business and as human beings, we're just built to like, not love, change. If you're like, hey, everything's going to your routine and you kind of know what's up and what to expect, and then, like wrenching the system, swim on the brakes, something else has happened, your initial reaction is like I don't like this, this is bad. And so it's been really challenging for myself, because you were talking about being a planner before.

Emily Sander: 24:34

I am a planner, and if you had met me 10 to 15 years ago, I had my week set out and if one little thing deviated I would kind of be thrown for a loop and I've come a long, long, long way from that.

Emily Sander: 24:45

But literally I would have things down to a T and if something went off course it would rattle me, and so I had to help myself get better at change.

Emily Sander: 24:54

And then, of course, as a leader, you have to help your team members navigate through change. And a story I like to tell is we had a team announcement at one of the companies I was at and I was kind of up to date on what was happening. I kind of processed through that. But when the team, when the official announcement went out, this was brand new information to my team members. So they were starting, you know, at ground zero and each one of them is an individual, so they're going to take that information in a different way, so it means something differently to them. So one of the biggest challenges I've had is, you know, hey, emily, make sure you're processing change in a healthy, positive way and make sure you're able to then lead your team through change in a healthy, positive way. And that's been an ongoing struggle and it's something I have to be ever conscious and cognizant about, but I think it's really. You can't not have it in today's world, so you have to invest in that and get good at it.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:48

That's good, and they don't all process the same speed or the same way.

Emily Sander: 25:52

Right right.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:53

You can't just say okay, I'm going to help the team by doing X, no, no, no, you got to help Brad, do it this way. Right, you got to help Joe, you could do it this way. You got to help Jane, do it this way. You can't just say one size fits all.

Emily Sander: 26:06

Yeah, yeah, because Brad might be worried about his job and his paycheck and and his paycheck and Joe might be wanting to vent to you and he just wants to like I'm angry, I'm upset, he wants to get that out and you're there to hold that space for him and Jane might need. Hey, here are the options. Let me walk through the potential things you might run into. And she's got to work that out on her own time. So, yeah, very, very good call and very different for different people.

Dr. William Attaway: 26:29

And it takes more time for you as the leader to do that. Like to deal with each one individually. Does it ever get frustrating or challenging in its own right for you?

Emily Sander: 26:39

Sometimes because in the example I'm like I already knew this, so I'm already like 10 steps ahead of you.

Emily Sander: 26:46

But it's not fair to them and if you think about it, if you don't do those steps, those people are going to be sitting there in anxiety, in uncertainty, which they don't like.

Emily Sander: 26:53

Those people are going to be sitting there in anxiety, in uncertainty, which they don't like, and then it's going to affect their performance, and not just at work, it's going to affect how they show up in all areas of their life.

Emily Sander: 27:02

And so one, if you can just help them out as a human and say, hey, let me try to assuage your concerns or at least address kind of your topical questions you have here, just as a person, that's nice to do. But also it'll usually help, you know, calm them down and at least know the next step, even if it's not 100% certain, like here's the next set of information we're going to look at, here's when that's going to come through. I'll be sure to touch base with you, you know, in two weeks, on Thursday type of thing, and that helps them settle down and then perform better. So I dealt with client-facing teams and, believe me, clients can pick up on if someone's having a bad day or they're kind of dealing with something or they're not on top of their game. Even if it's not anything explicit, it shows up in the interactions and the decisions, and so just taking that time to help your team member as a person, but also as a member of your team is a really good investment of time as a leader.

Dr. William Attaway: 27:55

That's so good. What advice would you give to somebody who's listening, who wants to level up their leadership from where they are, or somebody who's not? They don't see themselves as a leader yet, but they think they might like to become one one day. What would you say to them?

Emily Sander: 28:11

Yeah, I would say always invest in yourself. So investing in yourself is never a bad answer. It will reap dividends. It's got no downside. So pick up a book If that's interesting.

Emily Sander: 28:22

Go listen to a podcast, keep listening to this one. Go reach out to a friend and just you know. Take self-inventory when am I at today? Where would I like to get to? Where are my strengths? Just some of these questions.

Emily Sander: 28:33

What comes naturally to me? What do people go to me for? And then find an action step to move yourself, one baby step in that direction. It doesn't have to be some big sweeping thing. I'm going to go get my MBA or I'm going to go take this whole other career trajectory. If you're there, great fine. But if you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, I just kind of want something I can bite-sized, chunk down. Take inventory when do you want to improve yourself? Where do you want to come up higher? What is one step you can take in that direction? And then take it? Go, take it this week, go do it. So life is short. Investing in yourself is always a good thing. It can only give you good options and good possibilities and open doors. So I'd encourage people to just take that next step, even if it's a baby step.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:16

That's good. You like to read I can see books behind you, we like that and comment Is there a book that has made a significant impact in your journey that you would recommend?

Emily Sander: 29:26

Yeah, there's lots of books. One is Essentialism by Greg McCowan, and that's a popular one, but it talks about really getting your priorities straight and being very high on your thresholds. So have high thresholds for what you spend your time and energy on, so what is essential. And then it's more than like a time management system, it's more like a philosophy and life ethos. And then he takes you through how to kind of discern opportunities that come your way. And it has to be a hell yes or a hard no. So it has to be like all your passion and all your energy is in that. So I love that book. And then there's a whole bunch of other ones, like Hannibal and Me, which is behind me somewhere, but that's a book.

Emily Sander: 30:10

The backdrop is the Carthaginian general Hannibal, not Hannibal Lecter. He famously took elephants over mountains and attacked Rome in the winter, of all things. But that's the backdrop. But it talks about people's trajectory in life and some people are very driven and they know what they want to do from like the cradle. And that was Hannibal. He knew that he wanted to be a general, he knew that he wanted to defeat Rome, to avenge his father.

Emily Sander: 30:34

And then there's also other leaders and other folks who kind of wander.

Emily Sander: 30:38

They're called the wanderers and they don't really have any clear direction and they kind of go from here to here and maybe stumble and fail and sometimes they feel like they're wasting time, but in fact they're gaining experience, and they're gaining a wide range of experience.

Emily Sander: 30:51

So when the time comes that they have to step into leadership, they have this plethora of vast experiences and so neither one is good or bad. They do have kind of some attributes that are unique to each of them. But it kind of talks about those different trajectories and it helps me because early in my career I was very anxious about I don't have a clear direction, I don't know what I'm supposed to be. If I had one, I'd hustle and grow every day toward it, but I don't have one, and so I got very anxious and this book really helped me. Like, hey, if you're wandering, you feel kind of like you're going with the tumbleweeds. In fact you are collecting very valuable experience, and of course it was true. So now I can look back and connect all the dots and say, oh yes, all those things added up to where I was supposed to be. But that's a great book that I would encourage people to pick up.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:38

So good, I'm going to pick that book up. I've never heard of it. Now I want to read this, yeah.

Emily Sander: 31:42

I'll send you the link. Yeah, it's fantastic.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:44

Yeah, I love that so often, when you read a lot, there's a quote or a phrase that just resonates so deeply with you, becomes a part of your journey, and it's one that you refer back to time and time again. Is there a quote or a phrase like that for you?

Emily Sander: 32:00

Yeah, there's a couple. I love quotes. So the one my dad said is small wins add up faster than you think, and so I always have loved that one. So, hey, if you're taking those baby steps, if you're doing those micro habits every day, those add up, those compound over time, believe you me. So small wins add up faster than you think. Just go get your win today. And than you think, just go get your win today. And then another one, which I like. It was by Matt Frazier, who is CrossFit champion, and he said I am successful because I'm willing to fail more times than you're willing to try.

Emily Sander: 32:32

I always love that. That's so good, yeah, yeah, because, like people who put themselves out there and do something new and push themselves are inevitably going to quote, unquote, fail, but in fact they're showing a mark of progress by being in that space. So I always loved that one.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:46

Both of those are fantastic, so inspiring. Emily. I know our listeners are going to want to continue to learn from you and stay connected with you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Emily Sander: 32:57

Certainly. I'm on social media, so LinkedIn, twitter, next Level Emily, and you can find me there. My website is nextlevelcoach, so nextlevelcoach, and all my handles are there and there's some free resources on that page. You can certainly reach out to me directly if you'd like. And then we talked about some things in my book. It's called Hacking, executive Leadership and that's on Amazon. There's a Kindle version, there's an Audible version, so you can pick that up wherever books are sold.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:25

I love that. I will have all those links in the show notes. Thank you, and I'm just so grateful for all of the wisdom and insight that you shared so generously today. Emily, thank you so much.

Emily Sander: 33:35

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast to be on, so I really appreciate it.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:38

Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:14

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you, Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 34:58

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