White-Label SaaS & Client Retention: The Future of Digital Agencies with Shaun Clark

Scaling a digital agency is hard—especially when client churn and inconsistent revenue hold you back. But what if your agency could generate predictable, recurring income while reducing churn? In this episode of the Catalytic Leadership Podcast, Dr. William Attaway sits down with Shaun Clark, CEO & Co-Founder of HighLevel, to uncover the future of digital agency growth through white-label SaaS and automation.

Shaun shares his entrepreneurial journey, how HighLevel became a game-changer for agencies, and why automation and white-label solutions are the key to scalable, profitable growth. Whether you’re struggling with client retention, lead generation, or scaling beyond service-based revenue, this episode provides actionable strategies to future-proof your agency. If you’re an agency owner looking to build a recurring revenue model and create a sustainable, high-growth business, this is a must-listen.

Connect with Shaun Clark

Want to learn more about white-label SaaS and agency automation? Connect with Shaun and explore the resources at HighLevel’s YouTube channel for expert insights, training, and success stories. Just search “HighLevel” on YouTube to get started.

Books Mentioned:

• The Essays of Warren Buffett – Warren Buffett

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Chapters

• 1:14 Introduction & Shaun Clark’s Background
• 5:21 What Makes HighLevel Different from Other SaaS Platforms?
• 7:47 How White-Label SaaS Creates Recurring Revenue for Agencies
• 14:04 The Power of Automation in Client Retention & Lead Generation
• 19:25 Overcoming Leadership Challenges When Scaling an Agency
• 25:53 Key Lessons from Shaun’s Entrepreneurial Journey
• 31:15 Where to Learn More About HighLevel & Next Steps

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:37

It is such an honor today to have Sean Clark on the podcast. Sean is the CEO and co-founder of High Level, a leading white-label marketing platform for agencies. Under his leadership, high Level has grown exponentially, providing agencies with comprehensive tools to automate client delivery, sales and marketing. Clark's vision is to empower agencies to scale, to reduce churn and to increase profitability. Sean, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Shaun Clark: 1:09

Yeah, hey, thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Intro/Outro: 1:13

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:29

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey in development as a leader. How did you get started?

Shaun Clark: 1:40

Well, I think from a very early age I somehow caught the entrepreneurship bug and always tried to pursue a course that led that way. But I didn't have anybody in my family or in my group that had that background, so I had to kind of just go out and learn from anybody I could find, and so I think I ended up because I had to do so much outreach. I remember writing letters to business owners or people I thought were important, and I was always surprised how calling them. I called some of them and I was always surprised how often they would be willing to take my call and share things with me and answer my questions and things, even though I'm sure most of those questions were terrible at the time. And then, just as time went on, you know, just you know, I've been a big fan of Warren Buffett and Gunn-Berkshire Hathaway's annual meeting about eight years in a row. Oh, yeah.

Shaun Clark: 2:27

So I think, just situating myself initially, just with this assumption that I didn't have a lot of resources, I think a lot of my journey is just from reaching out to so many other people and just trying to find my way, reading a lot of books and you know, and then making a lot of mistakes and taking a lot of chances and, you know, doing a lot of pivots and that's part of the journey, right, absolutely so.

Dr. William Attaway: 2:49

did you start with high level?

Shaun Clark: 2:54

Was this the first thing out of the chute? Let's see, I think the first thing I did is I did websites and servers and IT stuff in high school. But yeah, eventually, I would say my first real business was I dropped out of college to start an answering service with another person who was much older than me I think I was 18 at the time but it grew pretty significantly. We ended up having it was like a $30 million operation. So we grew it from a standing start to over a thousand employees and then I left that and started what was really my first, I would say, kind of solo operation, which was my first software company as well, or PurePlay, anyways, invoice short, but it automatic invoice reminders for small businesses, and I grew that to about a thousand small businesses and then that was purchased and then I learned a lot through that business, which is it's hard to do things by yourself.

Shaun Clark: 3:39

So I went out on this one and then I went to high level after. Well, to be fair, actually, I went out and got the best, the smartest engineer I ever met, because I knew I needed help, whatever I was getting into next. And then we started the invoicing product for mobile and that failed. And then we did a full suite of management tools for, like, hvac and field services and that fundamentally failed but ultimately allowed us to realize that instead of focusing on operations, we really want to focus on sales and marketing, and that's really what led to High Level initially and then even there, you know, initially we sold direct to SMBs and that failed, but that also allowed us to connect with our third co-founder, who really opened our eyes to going out and selling to the people who help small businesses. If you really want to help the small business business directly, help the people who are helping them. So, you know, there's a lot of ins and outs and double backs and failures along the road, so quite a few of those.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:29

I imagine many of the people who are listening are familiar with High Level. I've been a customer and a proponent now for almost two years. Absolutely. I'm a big fan. That's what we like to hear.

Shaun Clark: 4:41

I attended my first summit this last October in Dallas and, in fact, I'm headed to an event right now. We're headed to our first international event in Dubai, so I'm sitting at the airport right now. Oh, that's fantastic.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:55

And that makes me appreciate the time even more. Oh, no, worries, as I'm thinking about high level. A lot of people are familiar with it, but some are not Like. If you were going to describe high level and what it brings to the table, how would you do that?

Shaun Clark: 5:08

Wow, I'm terrible at this.

Shaun Clark: 5:11

I always try to look for other people when someone asks this question, but I'm by myself, so you know what I would say is you know, these days it is an all-in-one sales and marketing product and very similar to HubSpot or Salesforce very much on that same level.

Shaun Clark: 5:26

But I think what makes it special is not the features that it has or the tools within it, but the model that it helps create. So from the very outset, we really thought, okay, well, how do we build this product such that it can be used by someone to help others? And what ended up happening with that idea in mind is it allows all of our customers to create a revenue stream that they didn't have before. So, yeah, sure, you get the same tools as everybody else, but you can do things like brand and resell it, and it really has this just focus on becoming something that is more than just a tool but is a business model, is a revenue generator for you. So really trying to focus on sharing kind of the profits, as it were, and helping people grow a business around it. So I think that's kind of what makes it special, or different.

Dr. William Attaway: 6:06

You know, I attended the affiliate day on Friday at the summit in October and one of your team invited me to come, and I listened to story after story of people who are doing just that, who are building businesses based around high level and how they're able to share it and how they are reaping the rewards of that. This is not a common way to build a business Like I don't see this everywhere. I don't think so.

Shaun Clark: 6:31

No, it's pretty, we get called crazy even to this day, which I find funny. But yeah, but I mean, you know, I think it's really simple. I think we always understood our strengths, which we would say are, you know, product and engineering, and we also understand our weaknesses and which are sales and marketing. And you know, I think what other companies try to do is sort of own all of it, and I think it is sort of a kind of a selfish play, but I also think that it's it's not very realistic. I think most people end up doing a bad job at it, and so what we did from the outset is just say like we're not going to try to be good at things that we're not good at. We're going to try to find people who are already good at those and figure out how to make it so that when they win, we win and we win, they win. And you know, I think that's what we've successfully done and it's helped us in ways we could have never imagined.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:18

That's so good, as you think about high level and what is being built, like what y'all are intentionally building, yeah, like what is one thing that you want most.

Shaun Clark: 7:29

You know, I think it's just about realizing that we've, you know, and I would say, stumbled into like I don't. I want to be really careful, I don't want to take credit Like I'm not some. I don't think I had any master plans, I don't think I'm that smart, but one way or another we stumbled into a whole different way to go about building a software business, and I've always wanted to help small businesses. I think they're very innovative people, but I also think they are the people who need the most help, oftentimes because they're trying to do the most with the least, and I think we've created a business model that allows us to do that. But, more importantly, the way we've done it is by helping other people help the small business, and they themselves then benefit from that. So for me, that radically changes the business model of every software company I've ever known. And so now I'm just thrilled about this idea of trying to share with more people, because I feel like it's the way, honestly, it probably, at least in the SMB space, always should have been, and so I feel like it's just a better model, and so it's time to get this out to other people, because the benefit I see, I suppose is, even if you go way down to the SMB level, their results are better.

Shaun Clark: 8:30

Because if you really think about the premise of software in general, software is just a tool. It's a saw, it's a hammer, whatever but it doesn't build the house. And if you think about what's missing in that equation is the people who understand how to use those tools to create amazing outcomes for small businesses, and that's what we celebrate and promote and we're built to kind of energize right Versus other software companies. They ignore the middle layer altogether. They don you'll magically somehow be able to build the house, and I just find that to be disingenuous. And so for me, it's how do we change that narrative and how do we get, how do we make it just known? Hey, listen, that's just not how it really works. It's like you know, yeah, you could do your own taxes, but if you're a real business, that would be dumb. You really want to hire account. I think the same thing should be said for marketing and for sales, even for CRM and technology implementation. So I think it's about taking that model and getting it out wider and farther.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:27

One of the things that I love about you and your team, and this is true with every interaction I've had. My very first interaction with a high-level team member was with Chase Buckner.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:37

We were both speaking oh that's a great place to start. We were both speaking at the same event and we just got to talking in the hallway. I said I'm not an agency, I don't run an agency, I have an executive coaching practice. I said could this work for me? And man, he just lit up. He's like absolutely. And he goes on to tell me how I can save, I'm having or dealing with and I know that flows down from the top, that generosity of being willing to share what you've learned and be a conduit of your learning and not just try to hold it all in for you. And that's now being expressed in how you're sharing the fruit of the labor right With all of these business owners who are now building businesses from this has. Where does that come from in you Like what? What's the source of this?

Shaun Clark: 10:42

Well, I don't know, that's a good question. Uh, I, I, I don't know. I almost feel like from inception I've learned as much from my customer, um as anybody Um. And so for me, maybe it's just my selfish way of trying to get more information from my customer, but I, you know, for every call I ever get on to ask people, you know, let's say like, oh, I have this problem, or whatever, and I love to jump on those calls because I can solve the problem.

Shaun Clark: 11:05

But while I'm there, I can ask all kinds of cool questions like hey, well, what do you do and how do you do it? What do you focus on, how long you've been in business and what do you sell? And I guess the way I think about it is we're in service of our customer and if we can learn more about them and how they actually operate day to day, we're going to do better. We've democratized a lot of those ideals through our ideas list and we have product town halls where all of our product managers show up there.

Shaun Clark: 12:37

But again, I think the simplest form of that is just being curious and trying to figure out well, how does this person you are trying to serve, how do they really work in real life Because you can sort of imagine, but it's just easier to ask. And it's amazing because you learn so much by talking to people and I think that you know some of it is just what you expected it to be and a lot of it is completely different than you expected it to be. But within there are the problems they deal with day to day and then it allows you to be creative and come up with solutions for those and it's this beautiful kind of two way flow and you just kind of keep building on it as you, as you move along.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:12

I love, that, that generosity of spirit and being willing to share is flowing throughout the DNA of high level and I just I want to affirm that with you and tell you how different that is from so many of the other organizations and companies that I work with. It's just not something to be taken for granted.

Shaun Clark: 13:34

Yeah, we just that's just how we come. We're just made that way, you know. But it's just, it's just who we are. But I mean all those other companies. I think the other problem is, I mean, I, all those other companies.

Shaun Clark: 13:42

I think the other problem is, I mean, I always, I always think, you know, I've been in the same shoes as my customers, I've been. You know, I'm at the bottom, I've been at the top of them, everywhere in between. And I think the reality is like I just think, gosh, what was it like when I got treated like that? And no one likes getting treated like that. And normal companies are terrible. They're just, they're too corporate, formal, and they pretend like I don't know, stuff's important. That's not so.

Shaun Clark: 14:02

I just never wanted to be like that and you know, I said if I ever got a chance to run a company, I would make it so that it wasn't like that. And that's kind of my chief role now is just running around trying to find anybody who's you know, and, to be fair to everybody, no one does it, I think implicitly with this intention of becoming something. It just happens. And I think we all, you know, we look around and we just try to sort of figure out what the best practice looks like and do it, and I think oftentimes that's, you know, that's where innovation goes to death, and so does customer service and experience and everything else. So I just feel like that's just not who we want to be, and that's why we focus on being as direct and honest and inclusive as we can.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:43

I love that. If you could go back 15, 20 years and have a conversation with yourself based on what you've learned and what you know now, what would you love to go back and tell yourself back then?

Shaun Clark: 14:55

You have a lot. I mean you have a lot more capability than you realize. I want to say that in the least arrogant way, but I mean I, for many years, spend a lot of time thinking I sort of needed to learn enough from someone else or sort of like, you know, reach some level or something. And it took a very long time. And I would say what it really took it really took was the birth of my son, because it was sort of on the pay that I realized that, you know, I could lie to myself all day long, but I couldn't lie to him, and someday I was going to tell him to go for his dreams. And if I wasn't willing to do the same thing, you know, I just I couldn't live with myself and so I said, all right, well, that's it, I'm done.

Shaun Clark: 15:31

So it was really, I think, going back, I would just say, you know, start sooner. And it's okay that you haven't achieved that. There is no, there's no magic. You know, it's sort of like it's like when someone says there's a magic cold email strategy or something right. It's just like no, there's not. You know, you just get out there and do it and you'll learn as you go along, and I think that I think sometimes as entrepreneurs we sort of have this imposter syndrome of thinking gosh. You know, maybe I'm not missing some learning or something or some achievement I need to get before I kind of proceed ahead and I would just sort of say that's nonsense. The best thing you can do is get out there and start taking hits, and the reality is you will. You'll make dumb decisions, you'll blow things up, you'll have terrible ideas, but the sooner you get out there and do that, the sooner you'll get through the bad stuff and you'll get to the good stuff. And I think that's the most important thing that we could all do better.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:23

I love that, as you have entered this journey and high level. In some ways, I imagine this felt like a hard battle and in some ways felt like a rocket ride.

Shaun Clark: 16:33

Yes, that's a great. That's a great way to think.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:37

What are, what are, what are some things that you have learned about leadership in this season, this particular season with Hilo, about leadership in this season, this particular season with Hilo.

Shaun Clark: 16:51

Well, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's sort of trying to stay true to the vision that you believe in. You know, even in the face of criticism, and recognize that the harder you push, the more pushback you're going to get Right. And you know, and when you see what are invariably going to be some very mean comments by people, recognize that you know behind them, you know you have to sort of look at the intentionality behind them and a lot of times, unfortunately, people will say things that what they're really saying is like I want attention, I'm not feeling good today. I, you know, I'm hurt, I'm upset.

Shaun Clark: 17:25

And if you can sort of see that behind what they're looking, what they're saying, I think you can sort of then treat them in the right way. And you can, and oftentimes you can, turn what on its face seems very angry and negative into something super positive. And I can think of a lot of detractors that eventually became huge supporters of ours because we really got to the heart of the issues that they had and realized and looked beyond the fact that in the moment maybe the way they were expressing that was pretty harsh, and I think that's a big part of trying to build something big is recognizing you're on a path, you want to do a great job. But no matter how hard you work, just realize there are always going to be people who you know, whether you like it or not, are going to say really mean things and you got to kind of look beyond those things if you really want to help those people as part of your journey.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:17

One of the first things I noticed about High Level when I became a customer. I joined the Facebook group and I was astounded that people were tagging you and the other co-founders and that you were answering. That was remarkable. And then I started to watch and I'm always looking and listening to what other people are saying as part of the occupational hazard and the number. Like you said, the comments were not always fantastic. Sometimes they are just mean, they're just ugly and I'm like, okay, wow.

Shaun Clark: 18:47

What a jerk thing to say but you do that as the leader?

Dr. William Attaway: 18:52

how do you handle that? Because some people are saying this is the best thing since sliced bread.

Intro/Outro: 18:57

I love it.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:58

Coughing like a seal, and some people are well not. You're receiving all of that.

Shaun Clark: 19:04

Well, I don't do it well, so that's the most important thing. I would say that the positive is at best neutral and the negative is super painful. But, but again, and that's just my personality, but I, you know, so you know, yeah, so sometimes I, just like you know, I I go outside and I curse their name and I hope they and I say I hope get hit by a train or something, and then, once I get that out of my system, you know, I always remember what Warren Buffett said. You know, warren Buffett always says you know you can tell him to go to hell tomorrow. And what he means by that is exactly that. It's like you know, if you, if you, if, if, if you try to address them, you know, rationally and and they're still irrational, I mean if, down the road, if you so choose, you can tell them to go to hell then.

Shaun Clark: 19:52

But in the moment, take a step back and say, well, what's really going on here? And what I just find is, with 99 percent of people, when they have those negative comments, it's in the spirit of trying to make something better and it's in that moment that they are feeling some amount of pain or discomfort because the way they're trying to go about it or the thing they're trying to do isn't working the way they were hoping it would, and if you simply say, ok, well, my job is to try to help that person, and you go after it, in that way, again, you can take all of the negative and you can turn it into positive. And, to be fair, we're all human and so not every criticism is unwarranted. I make mistakes, my team makes mistakes and we always will. And so some of that is like, yeah, you're right, we did have a bug there, sorry about that, things happen, but hey, let's see what we can do to fix that problem.

Shaun Clark: 20:39

And again, if that's the attitude you take, I think you could really again just net, net. Take most people I would say most, I mean it's 99%. There are those one percenters that, sorry, there's just nothing you can ever do. But even there, I always tell my team you got to kill them with kindness, you got to make them turn away from you, because all you want to do is help them and they refuse to be helped. But at no point does it serve anybody to be angry and to be upset. Just realize that there's a reason they're saying those things and go after it with that attitude of trying to help and do the best you can and call it a day.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:14

What a fantastic frame to put on that you have to lead in a different way and at a higher level today that you did three, four, five years ago, and that same thing is going to be true three, four, five years from now.

Shaun Clark: 21:27

How do you continue to level up your game, like, how are you growing and sharpening your saw Gosh, I don't know, I think you know, I think it's tough because as you, as you get bigger, there's a lot of people that will try to tell you that you have to be different. And I think what is, I think what's hard about that and is dangerous in some regards about that is it's not that all of that is wrong, but it's also not that all of that is right, because what got there's always this phrase like what got you here won't get you there. But I take a little bit of issue with that because the reality is actually, what got you here got you here.

Shaun Clark: 22:06

And some of that and the essence of that. It's obvious, right, but the essence of that is just like, well, what is it about that? And it's taking that essence forward. I think that's really important. And so to your point. But I also know that how those onboarding calls were done are just as important now as ever, and a Christmas morning, if you get on the phone with a random team member of ours, that you're going to get the same motivations and core values as anything else. I mean, the training is important, the knowledge and yada, yada, yada, but all that I care less actually about that if they miss the core values. I mean, I think it's amazing to me because I think that you know, you got to realize.

Shaun Clark: 23:01

As much as people like to think of this as a quantitative effort, humans are very qualitative. We talk a big game about being very logical and all that, but that's just nonsense. We're incredibly emotional creatures. For a company I know nothing about than somebody who knows a lot about them, if the difference between them and I are that I show that I have empathy, I really care, I want to find the solution for that problem versus somebody who may know all of the things but really gives you the impression of a dart, and so for me, it's about making sure that we're building a place where everybody has that perspective and customers feel it, because we always will make mistakes and there's just nothing you can do about it. In fact, we want to make mistakes because for us, it tells me we're moving faster, and fast enough. I don't want to be flawless and I don't want to be, because the people who do that, at least in our industry, they're slow.

Shaun Clark: 24:00

I'll see you next year for the new features we're going to announce. I mean, that's just garbage, nonsense, right? I'm going to go announce features after this call, you know, and that's the way we're going to do it, and to me that's how we serve our customer best. But I think if you're going to do it that way, you need to have the empathy that goes with it, and so for me, that's that's how I lead, and how am I going to do that differently in three years? I have no clue, and that's the fun part about it. I didn't have a clue three years ago. I don't have a clue what I'm going to do three months from now, that I try to live as much of the moment as I can, because I think that's how the world operates and should operate a lot more than it does.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:38

That's great as you learn, as you grow. Are there books or podcasts that you have found incredible value in that you would recommend?

Shaun Clark: 24:47

That's a good question. I mean probably, but I think so, like the Warren Buffett example I gave. You know, the reason I go year after year isn't to share the latest amazing ways to make money, and in fact, I will tell you, warren tells me almost the same thing every year. And in fact, I will tell you, warren tells me almost the same thing every year. It's amazing how the same core ideas are incredibly. They just stand the test of time, and I almost just do it to remind myself of the things that matter.

Shaun Clark: 25:13

And so, for me, I think it's less about like the new hot thing, it's about finding things that can be done over a lifetime. In fact, that's what I like about Warren is somebody who plays at his level. You know it's very hard to play at that level for that amount of time and just truly be a terrible human being. Right, it's like you know. It's like you know if you really, if you're really into working out, go find out what 80 year olds do, because if you can do it when you're 80, you can do it for a very long time. It it's very sustainable.

Shaun Clark: 25:47

So I look for things that scale really well and I look for leaders and heroes that I can look to, that have that are generally old because they've been doing it for a long time.

Shaun Clark: 25:51

And so, you know, for me it's, I think it's about finding those types of people that matter almost more than anything else, because the latest books, they may be the greatest ideas, they may not, I don't know. I'm going to wait until they're, I'm going to wait until they're out for a while before I decide to take a look. So for me, that's kind of how I sort of see the world is just try to stick to the things that have always worked, and, you know, you might iterate on them, you may add your flavor to it, but at its core we're all, we're still human and we haven't moved that much, you know, in the last long, long time, and so I think it's great that way. There's a lot of things that you can do today that you've always been able to do, and you might use a different medium to do them, but you're still fundamentally doing the same things.

Dr. William Attaway: 26:33

John, this has been so incredibly helpful today. One of the things that I often tell clients is that your agency or your business will never outgrow your leadership. You can become the lid that stops growth by not developing and growing, and one of the things that I really admire and appreciate about you and your leadership is that you are intentional about making sure the main things are the main things. You're not going to compromise on integrity. You're not going to compromise on service. You're not going to compromise on the culture that you're building and that trickles down Not just to your team. Yeah, leadership comes from the top.

Shaun Clark: 27:07

That's what I always say. That's exactly right.

Shaun Clark: 27:11

Yeah, and I think sometimes it's hard for people to see that, but if you think about it, everybody looks up on level and eventually that comes to you right? And I think it's hard because you know it's like and it's all. It's a small things too. You know it's like. It's like. You know, we, we fly economy.

Shaun Clark: 27:26

Why do we do that? It's because I don't want somebody to say, well, you know he does that, so why should I right? So it's little things like that that really do add up at the end of the day. And so you know. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't. You know, if not flying economies have been killed to you, I don't care myself, but you know, then do that in your own personal, but for your business trips, like, make sure that's how it is, like whatever that is for you or like you know, this is why I actually like talking to customers. So I kind of get to cheat on this one, but it's the same thing, right? It's like, well, not talking to them, you know, because he doesn't right, but they can't say that because the.

Shaun Clark: 28:03

CEO of the company is willing to talk to her, because smirk, you lose right, you can't say no. So you know, all of those things really do reverberate and they do it. And they do it in a way that I think most people just cannot quite comprehend and the word just gets out. So just assume. And so this is like the Warren Buffett in me, but he always says look, whatever you're going to do, just imagine tomorrow is going to show up on the front page of your local newspaper, which of course these days it's online, but written by a well-informed reporter. And would you be proud of that story? And if you would, then you're doing the right thing, and if not, there's probably a problem with what you're doing, and it doesn't make you a horrible person and just should make you think huh, why would I feel guilty about other people knowing about this? And try to find a way to fix it.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:47

What a great way to live, Sean. This has been such an incredible gift today your time, your generosity of sharing what you've learned in your journey so far. I know our listeners are going to want to continue to learn from you and learn more about high level. What is the best way for them to do that?

Shaun Clark: 29:01

Gosh, you know, the best place to go is probably our YouTube channel. You get, you know, if you're a software nerd like me, you can see all the software stuff. If you want to see all the amazing people we have had the great fortune of working with or bringing into our orbit in some way, they're there so and you don't have to sign up for anything. So I think it's a great place to go. You'll learn a lot, no matter what. So, yeah, go to YouTube and just search Hilo. You can't miss it.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:26

I love it, sean thank you so much for your time and your insights today, man, awesome. Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 30:06

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 30:50

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.