How To Fix Costly Marketing Strategy Mistakes With James Hipkin

Too many businesses waste time and money on marketing tactics without a clear strategy, leaving them frustrated with poor results. In this episode, I sit down with James Hipkin, a seasoned marketing expert with over 40 years of experience working with brands like Apple, Toyota, and Wells Fargo. James shares why most marketing efforts fail—not because of bad copy or design, but because of a lack of strategy. He breaks down his Hub and Spoke model, revealing how to make your marketing work as a system instead of disconnected efforts.

We also discuss why most loyalty problems stem from a broken sales process and how fixing it can dramatically increase revenue. James introduces a bold new way to think about websites: Instead of focusing on conversions, businesses should aim for confirmation—proving to visitors they understand their problem and have the right solution.

If you’ve ever felt like your marketing isn’t working the way it should, this episode is packed with actionable insights to stop making costly marketing strategy mistakes and start seeing real results. Plus, James offers a free 30-minute consultation—don’t miss out!

Connect with James Hipkin:

James Hipkin has spent over 40 years mastering the art of digital marketing, and in this episode, he shares game-changing insights that can revolutionize your approach. If you’re serious about building a marketing strat

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Right now, you can get an extra 20% off your ticket for the Scale with Stability Summit with my exclusive code CATALYTIC20 at checkout.

Visit scalewithstability.com to grab your ticket—I hope to see you there!

Chapters

• 0:38 From Music to Marketing
• 10:25 The Power of Strategic Marketing
• 16:21 Fixing Broken Sales and Loyalty Issues
• 23:16 Websites: Confirmation Over Conversion
• 29:58 Six-Second Website Fixes
• 37:42 Timeless Marketing Principles

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:37

It is an honor today to have James Hipkin on the podcast. James has worked in marketing and advertising at a high level for over 40 years. He is an accomplished, forward-thinking marketing professional. His clients include Sprint, apple, wells Fargo Online Bank, nestle and Toyota. His clients appreciate his practical, no-nonsense approach. James is passionate about websites and helping the rest of us understand online marketing, as he explains the in and outs of digital marketing in ways that make sense. James, I'm so glad that you are here. Thanks for being on the show.

James Hipkin: 1:19

Hey William, I'm really happy to be here as well. I think we're going to have a great chat and looking forward to sharing some experiences and hopefully helping your audience with some of the challenges that they're facing. I'm looking forward to it.

Intro/Outro: 1:36

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:53

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, tickling around your journey and your development as a leader. James, how did you get started?

James Hipkin: 2:05

I have a bit of a checkered past and it's a bit of an unusual past, but it did prepare me for key things throughout my career and key things that helped me, particularly in leadership roles.

James Hipkin: 2:22

I graduated from college with a music degree Interesting and you wouldn't think that being a performing musician would be a good preparation for success in marketing in general and in the agency world in particular.

James Hipkin: 2:42

And yet it proved to be, because to be a performing musician, you have to have a great deal of. You have to have empathy, which means you need to be able to not only perform and do what you're doing, but you also have to be always listening and aware of what everybody else in the team is doing. Yes, and that balancing act between your skills and working within a larger group is one of the key principles for success, particularly when you're dealing in the agency world, where you're dealing with clients that have one kind of mindset and then you're dealing with the creative department, which has a very different mindset, and how do you bring those two things together in a way that's balanced and productive? And, oddly enough, my background in music was really helpful. And then I know this won't shock you, but corporate America does not knock your door down when you have a music degree.

James Hipkin: 3:54

I spent the first six years out of college working in the rock and roll industry, touring with recording artists and and bands, many of whom you'd recognize even today, and that brought another skill set to bear, because in that world you're dealing with all kinds of personalities, you're dealing with very tight schedules, you've got a lot of moving parts going on simultaneously. They all have to work in concert with each other, no pun intended. And you know the thing is, the show is ready to go at eight o'clock. The band may not go on to stage at eight o'clock, but the show is ready to go at eight o'clock and there are no excuses. And that, that discipline and that ability to work under pressure and to work with all of these moving parts simultaneously, also proved to be an excellent preparation for working in the marketing and advertising world is incredibly useful Thinking about the deadlines, thinking about the high demands and the inflexibility that is so often a part of those relationships.

James Hipkin: 5:08

And the absolute, essential need to delegate and trust the people who are you working with.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:17

Yes.

James Hipkin: 5:18

And recognize that nobody comes to work with the intention of doing a bad job and if something goes awry, then chances are it's a systems and process problem, not a people problem. Now, there are exceptions. Sometimes it is a people problem, but that shouldn't be your default reaction, and I learned this the hard way in working with touring bands and it also applies very clearly in my career throughout agency and marketing. So that was interesting and I spent six years doing this. And then I worked on a project that was being sponsored by Steve Wozniak. It was called the Us Festival. It was in Southern California, it was a six-month-long project and it just about killed me and at the end of that I'm like I really don't want to keep doing this.

James Hipkin: 6:13

And I remembered a conversation that I'd had with the lead singer and bass player of a very well-known heavy metal band and they were one of the first bands to be vertically integrated and he was a very sensible, intelligent guy and we had some really good conversations, not about music but about business. You know he recognized that if they were, they needed to have control, so they owned their own sound and lights and when they weren't using the sound and lights, they'd rent them to other bands. They owned their own trucks and when they weren't using the trucks, they would rent them to other bands. They owned their own record company and they used that record company to also sign other artists. They owned their own record company and they use that record company to also sign other artists. They own their own publishing. Now Taylor Swift and people in that ilk are doing this today. Right, but this was back in the 1980s, so this was very unusual, and it was that conversation that opened my mind to the concept that, you know, maybe with my music degree and my music background, maybe there was a place for me in the you know, in the business world, and it seemed that advertising and marketing was the thing that I probably had the easiest transition into.

James Hipkin: 7:41

So I went about getting a job as an assistant account executive at an ad agency and managed to do that, and the guy who hired me said why you know, why should I hire you? And I said well, I know how to make money. That's a good skill. And he said you know, I've hired all these right out of college kids. If you're willing to start as a junior account executive, even though you're 30 years old, I'm willing to give you a shot because you've got common sense and street smarts and I figured the rest of the stuff you seem like a smart guy. We can probably teach you the rest of the stuff. I love that. That's how I got into the agency world and I said, yeah, I'd be willing to do this, but you need to review me every six months. And so that was the deal and that led to a long and successful career on four different countries on three different continents and it's, you know, working with some big brands and big, you know, multi-nine figure budgets. And it's been a trip.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:58

You know, thinking about that journey, I mean 40 years in the marketing and advertising world that's an eternity but especially when you think about the shift that happened into digital marketing.

James Hipkin: 10:12

Well, yeah, never mind digital marketing, we didn't even have computers. I have a funny story about that, if you don't mind, yeah, but it's also indicative of what I think is a very successful aspect, and that's the willingness to take risks in a smart way. There's this thing in the agency world called a budget control report, and that's where we take the budget that we're managing for our client and we have the months. Across the top is the columns and then down the rows is all of the various tasks that we're charged with. And then there's inside of each month there's two columns One column is the actuals and the other column is the budget, and we need to reconcile that every month. And when I started, there were no computers. It was all done with a piece of paper and a pencil and a calculator, and then we'd send the piece of paper off to the women in the word processing room and two or three days later it would come back to you and it'd be full of errors and you'd have to correct it all and send it all back. The whole process took a week to 10 days of laborious back and forth. Okay, so this was about the same time that the Apple Lisa was launched and the IBM PC was launched and Lotus 1.2 released. Yeah, I remember Lotus 1.2. So I rented a personal computer on my own dime and I bought Lotus 1.2.3 and I set it up in my office and I figured out how to make it work.

James Hipkin: 11:55

Okay, so my boss's boss, who ended up actually becoming the CEO of the entire agency organization his name was Bill. Bill was a screamer and I don't know if you've ever dealt with a screamer before, but with my background in rock and roll, I've been screamed at by the best, so it didn't bother me particularly. Anyway, bill went roaring down the hall past my office and I could almost hear his feet skidding on the floor. And he comes back Hipkin, what have you done? What is that thing? I'm not paying for that thing, you know. Scream, scream, scream. So I'm like okay, as soon as he sort of calmed down, I said Bill, if you finished yelling at me, let me show you something. Do you remember budget control reports? And he's like oh God, those things are so awful. He said come here and look at this. And I showed him how I built a budget control report in Lotus 1, 2, 3, and I'd add the numbers and I would all add up, he was gobsmacked and within six months every account executive in the agency had a personal community.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:05

Leading the way.

James Hipkin: 13:07

The lesson here is don't be afraid of risks. If you're going about it in a smart way and if it's solving real problems, yes, it's worth taking a look at and to I mean to his credit he saw the opportunity there as well. But who knows? And eventually it would have come. It would have come, but we were the first agency in town that had personal computers for their account executives.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:34

Goodness I love that you talk about so many different aspects of digital marketing, James, and in reading more about you and the expertise that you have, one of the things that I was impressed with is what you describe as the hub and spoke digital marketing strategy. Could you share a little bit about that and why you believe that is so effective?

James Hipkin: 13:58

Well, everybody, people get all wrapped up in tactics. They get all wrapped up in the new shiny things, and when I'm auditing websites and digital marketing programs for clients, the most common problem I see is not copy, it's not design, although that can often be a problem as well but the really fundamental, underlying problem that I see more often than not is an absence of strategy, is an absence of strategy, and I came up with the hub-and-spoke metaphor the wheel basically as a way to make the point that the power in marketing doesn't come from the individual things that you're doing. It comes from how the things are connected together, and that's an application of strategy. So, if you think about, in the online world, the website is the hub. It's where your content emanates out from and it's where your audience comes back into. The digital media channels that you're using are the spokes. The content and messaging strategy that you're using are the spokes, and the content and messaging strategy that you're developing is the rim that holds it all together. And when you have that strategic idea about what you're doing, then a lot of the stuff that you don't need to do falls off the table because it doesn't fit.

James Hipkin: 15:34

That's good, right, and the and the larger point is that the power comes from the connections. You know, you, what I do see a lot I was what I am particularly with websites is what I call checkboxes. You know, business owner, I need to have a website. My nephew made a website. See, I have a website. Check the box. I need to be on social media. See, I'm on social media. I've got all this stuff going on over here at Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Check the box. None of it's connected. It's not connected with each other and, even more important, it's not connected with the audience. It's just noise. And it might be pretty noise, it might be very well designed, very well written, but if it's not connected, it's still noise.

James Hipkin: 16:32

And that concept of having an underlying foundation built on strategy is, you know, that's not about digital marketing or traditional advertising or marketing or any. That's a fundamental principle, that is, the ability to distill things down to principles, because principles apply regardless of the size of your business, regardless of the size of your client. Principles apply. And I'll give you another story. We'd just been I was an executive vice president at a large agency in San Francisco, in Chicago, and we'd been hired by a large telecommunications company to help them with their loyalty. They were literally losing clients customers faster than they were gaining customers. And we pitched for the business and won the business.

James Hipkin: 17:33

And I sat down with the head of marketing and I'm in his office talking about what the plan's going to be and I looked him in the eye and I said I need you to spend less money. Well, he damn near fell off his chair. He's like you're the first agency person I have ever met in my entire career has walked in here and told me I need to spend less money. And I said let me explain why I'm saying this. One of the fundamental principles that exists in business is that 80% of your revenue is coming from 20% of your customers. The specific numbers will vary, but the concept, the Pareto's principle, will apply. And I said you're right now spending as if all of your customers are equally important. They are 20% of your customers really really care about what you're doing and the other 80%, nah, they're casual users. Your customers really really care about what you're doing and the other 80%, nah, they're casual users and all of the marketing in the world is not going to change a customer's need state.

James Hipkin: 18:48

So what we need to do is we need to determine who the 20% is, we need to determine what really matters to them and we need to focus our efforts on bringing value to that group. Okay, well, he said yeah, let's do that. It took us about a year to put the program in place and at the end of the second year I asked him so how are we doing now? You have to recognize this was a two billion dollar base of business and he said we've generated 20 percent revenue growth on our business base without changing changing market share. Wow, right, and that's the application of strategy to business and when you can do that, you're everybody's going to win at this. We grew that business from. We were starting assignment was about a hundred grand a month for the initial assignment and by the end of the five years that I ran that business we were close to a million dollars a month in fee revenue from the client.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:01

My goodness, that is remarkable, James. So often people are looking for that silver bullet, that one thing that's going to change everything. If we just do this, this will do the what you're describing. It feels a little bit like that, but it's not complicated.

James Hipkin: 20:20

No, because it's rooted in principles.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:24

Right.

James Hipkin: 20:25

It's rooted in principles and when you can distill things down to that level and then you can apply execution, you're going to find that your execution is a lot more efficient and it's just. Everything works better. The other principle that's involved here is something that same client, coincidentally, but we hired a guy who was specialist in loyalty research and he did a study to help us understand what the issues were, what was affecting loyalty, why people were loyal, why people weren't loyal, that sort of thing. I don't remember any of the details from the research. I remember one sentence that he uttered in his preamble before he presented the results he was an expert in loyalty research. He'd done loyalty research across many, many categories and many, many brands and many B2B, B2C. And he said in his funnel the bow tie, basically, is how I describe it.

James Hipkin: 21:45

Other people use the same metaphor and how do we bring value through the marketing? Through the marketing, so we're bringing value to the customers that care about it, this whole best customer concept. In a way that's building relationship and building trust. Because when it gets right down to it, another principle what's a brand by definition of a brand and it's not the normal one by definition of the brand is the existence of what I call relationship equity. When the consumer has experienced value that goes beyond the transactional and functional benefits of the product or service that they're purchasing. That's when you get brand. There are a lot of products with names that are masquerading as brands, but there is no relationship equity there. There's no insulation that's going to protect that relationship and it's going to give the I mean the.

James Hipkin: 22:52

The psychology here is called attribution theory, that if a perfect stranger does something wrong, your attribution is that he or she is an idiot. Right, If somebody you have a relationship does something wrong, your instinct is huh, what's the matter? Are you having a bad day? What's going on? Okay, You're nodding your head. It's a very common sense kind of thing, and yet marketers don't think about it. Hmm, so when you, 80% of loyalty problems can be traced to a flawed sales process, If you build your sales process, your marketing funnel, so that it is bringing value to these customers and so that the purchase isn't a sale, the purchase is the next logical step in their journey, Hmm, I like that. Right, Functionally and effectively, everything I've said is exactly the same thing, but the mindset shift is really important. Yeah, I have another example of this. It's pretty controversial. I want people to stop saying call to action.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:14

Yeah, well, good luck, but tell me why?

James Hipkin: 24:19

you think about it, a call to action is a marketer shouting at a customer and telling them what to do. Yes, people don't want to be shouted at and they don't want to be told what to do. Very true. What I want you to start thinking about is in terms of creating pathways, people like you pathways. This is very effective in websites where you you've got like a broad benefit statement at the in the hero section that says yes, I understand your problem. And then you create people like you, pathways that call out to sub segments in your audience and said you, you know, if you're this person, we've got some great information and insights that are going to support what you're trying to accomplish.

James Hipkin: 25:05

And when somebody chooses that pathway, two very powerful things have happened. They've told you exactly who they are. More even than that, they've given you permission to give them more information. That's good. Which would you rather have? Somebody you've just bullied into doing something, or somebody who's chosen a pathway? Now, functionally, pathway and a call to action functionally exactly the same thing. But the mindset shift is really important and it really matters because you're getting the right customers for the right reasons.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:49

I think that framing is incredibly valuable, james, and I really hope our listeners are paying attention to that. You know problem properly framed can give you a much better solution, always, always. So well said Websites are your passion.

James Hipkin: 26:10

Well, because they're the pivot point in the online world. They're the pivot point where I'll give you a great example of this. I'll ask a business owner what's the primary objective of your website and he'll give me a litany, or she'll give me a litany of things that they want the website to do, and then we'll have a quick discussion around the definition of the word primary to do, and then we'll have a quick discussion around the definition of the word primary.

Dr. William Attaway: 26:39

There can only be one, only one. That's right by definition.

James Hipkin: 26:46

And eventually they'll settle in. On conversion, this is another bit of controversy here. I hope you're up for it, William, Bring it on. It's almost always wrong.

James Hipkin: 26:59

The primary objective of most websites is not conversion, it's confirmation. When somebody is getting to the website they're on their journey is getting to the website, they're on their journey and they are looking for confirmation that you understand them, understand their problem and have a solution for their problem that they can believe makes sense. These are all steps that happened around the concept of confirmation. Conversion will happen eventually, but that's that's not the primary goal. Primary goal is confirmation, because you want to have that trust event that I get you. I understand your problem and again, that's why I'm saying stop saying call to action, start creating pathways. That's a manifestation of this idea. Your goal here is confirmation and your job is to support the journey that your customer is on and when you do that, you're going to be building trust, you're going to be building relationship and you'll get to that. Holy grail of the purchase is the next logical step in my journey. It's not something I feel like I've been tricked into doing that makes such sense.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:27

I love that. I love that flow and I love thinking about this in terms of a journey. I think that's very, very helpful thinking, thinking about websites. What are the mistakes that you see people making over and over again? I mean one of them you've alluded to with this whole thing of what's the primary purpose. You know what are some other things that you see?

James Hipkin: 28:47

An awful lot of websites, particularly in the B2B space, but B2C as well are akin to a business owner standing on the top of his building and shouting at the world at large about how awesome they are. I call this inside out marketing interesting, you know. They regurgitate everything they can possibly think about features, attributes, stuff. They do. It's all dumped out on the homepage and it's left to the poor consumer to sort out what's relevant to them or not. This is another reason why I talk about pathways. But when you think about it, what the audience is looking for is not what you're selling. The audience is looking for a solution to their problem. That's right. And they're on their journey and, if you can, if the website supports that journey. So how does what does this mean? I have my little stick here. Is you know six ways to engage website visitors in six seconds or less? Six seconds is in very many seconds, that's right and way. Number one the six seconds does not start when the page has loaded. The six seconds starts when the page is asked for and if your page is taking three, three and a half four seconds to load, and if your page is taking three, three and a half four seconds to load and a lot of sites do that because they're paying for cheap and cheerful hosting. They got their nephew to make the website. There's all kinds of bloat in there and unnecessary stuff and et cetera, et cetera. So page load speed is number one. Number two is recognizing that the consumer is on their journey. Their first instinctive thought process is am I in the right place? So if they're looking for somebody's name and they arrive on a website that's got some obscure business name and a logo in the upper left-hand corner that they'd never heard of before, suddenly you've got they're thinking about am I in the right place? Is this what I'm looking for? Is this what I was trying to find? Why am I here? These are all things you don't want them thinking about because you've only got six seconds, that's right. So consistency in your color palette, consistency in fonts, consistency in messaging, recognizing how you're attracting people to the page, to the site, so that instantaneously, when they get there, they don't have to think about it. They're like, yeah, this is where I want to be. Then first thing they read is the headline in the hero section, and that needs to be a benefit. That needs to speak to what they're looking for, their problem. Not about what you do, what they're trying to solve Good, okay. About what you do, what they're trying to solve good, okay, then you have a solution. Why should they believe you? How many websites? They've got testimonials in a carousel sitting above the footer, at the bottom of the web home page because somebody told him you have to have testimonials on your website. Okay, look check box. Nobody cares, nobody looks at those things. They're way down at the bottom of the page. You want to have, right immediately below the hero, a trusted buy with some key brand icons. It doesn't have to be the great American novel, just visually you want to reinforce that this is we're trust. Or one powerful testimonial from a customer. Give them a reason to believe, to support what you're doing, and then sprinkle those testimonials all throughout the website, making them relevant.

James Hipkin: 32:57

When I talk about pathways, that pathway leads to a landing page. Same principles apply. The landing page should lead with a benefit that's connected to how they got there. Give them a reason to believe. Give them a testimonial from somebody who's just like they are, because they've told you who they are by choosing the pathway. That's good, right. Then make the content easy to consume Lots of white space, short line lengths.

James Hipkin: 33:28

Newspapers are printed in columns for a reason Columns are easier to read. Don't have your lines all spread out across the page where people are like contrast. Most business is generated from people who are over 40. Sadly, our eyes start to degrade yes, they do. It's harder and harder to see stuff. So contrast is your friend. Images need to support the words. Pictures tell, copy, sell.

James Hipkin: 34:06

When we do photo shoots, particularly for e-commerce sites, we don't have the models looking out at the camera. We have the model looking over or looking down or looking up, because when people see a picture of a person, they look where the person is looking. And now that I've told you this, you'll start to see it all over the place in professionally designed websites. You'll see it in print ads. In print ads, the models are not looking out, they're looking at the headline. Why does stock photography always look cheesy? Above and beyond the fact that it often is cheesy, the photographers who are shooting this photography. They make their money by selling the photography. The photography is more attractive when the model in the photography is looking straight out at you. You can relate to that model. That and that makes sense in that circumstance, but it doesn't make sense on a website. So good, right, that's so good, so true. And then I've talked about this already make their pathway clear.

James Hipkin: 35:21

Use visual hierarchy. Most people are right-handed. They scan a page from the upper left-hand corner to the lower right-hand corner. Why is the call to action in the lower left-hand corner? Designers don't care about any of this stuff, they just want it to be balanced. But UX professionals if you get a UX professional, they're going to flip that thing around. So the images on the left and the words and the call to action is on the right, cause that's how people read from left to right. So good, right, it's just common sense when you think about it.

Dr. William Attaway: 35:55

But I, most people don't, and I have I once heard said that common sense is not a flower planted in every garden. You know, I think that's what makes it so powerful, right.

James Hipkin: 36:08

And you know our business is. We act as a subcontractor to design agencies who are looking for a powerful and reliable resource to help big build large corporate websites, and we've had relationships with the same group of agencies for seven, eight, nine years. We put one several clients we've been building websites for for more than 10 years, my goodness, and the reason for that is we push back, we don't let them do stupid things, and they've learned to trust us. Yeah, because at the end of the day.

James Hipkin: 36:50

We can rationalize and defend everything we say, we can point to the evidence and they've learned to trust us.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:59

James, you are obviously a continual learner. You are always learning, always listening, always growing. Is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? Hey, if you haven't read this, check this out. Yeah, there's a couple.

James Hipkin: 37:17

It's been around for a while. I don't even know if it's still in print, but the book is called the Loyalty Effect and it was a Boston consulting group consultant named Reichelt and he wrote this book and it's the power of loyalty and the power it's the Pareto's principle principle, the 80 20 thing we talked about. It's really a powerful, powerful thing. The other one that I think is again it's been around for a long time crossing the chasm. When crossing the chasm was written about technology and startups and all that sort of thing, but the application of the principles are still very valid.

James Hipkin: 37:58

One of my last agency assignments I worked for an agency in San Francisco that we were managing the Toyota dealerships in Northern California and this was back in the era of when the Prius was relaunched, when it went from that kind of boxy, rounded model to the teardrop shape design and everybody else in the country was marketing this based on. It was a hybrid and it was good to the environment. In Northern California we didn't do that. We figured that the early adopters were already sold. We didn't have to sell the early adopters. They probably already had a Prius. We needed to cross the chasm. We needed to think about what do the early majority need? So, against much objection and a lot of resistance, we launched a campaign in Northern California that marketed the new Prius as an economical family car, because it was a hybrid. Hmm.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:13

Different target.

James Hipkin: 39:14

William, we sold more Priuses in Northern California than the rest of the country combined.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:22

I got to check this book out. No, I read that and clearly there's some good principles. So good, james, this has just been a masterclass. Today, I'm so grateful to you for sharing so much from the insights and the wisdom that you have gained over these decades. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn more about you and what you're doing. What is the best way for them to do that?

James Hipkin: 39:48

Well, I have a link. It's very easy to remember VIPchatwithjamescom. If you go to VIPchatwithjamescomcom you can get 30 minutes on my calendar. I love to hear from people, I love to find out, because it's so educational for me to explore the challenges that you're facing. Bring what value I can. But it really helps us and our business and in terms of how we support. So take the opportunity. V VIP chat with jamescom. I'd love to chat, love to hear about what you're doing. Hopefully there's a way we can find some synergy and if not, I can share some experiences and you know, help, help in some way.

Dr. William Attaway: 40:37

I know our listeners will do that. We'll make sure to have that link in the show notes, James, thank you. Thank you again. Thanks for joining me for this episode today.

Dr. William Attaway: 40:45

As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 41:22

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, non-profits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about and, if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader. I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 42:02

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.