How To Build A Strong Company Culture With Greg Cagle

Have you ever wondered why some companies thrive while others struggle with disengaged employees and unclear direction? In this episode, I sit down with Greg Cagle, a seasoned entrepreneur and culture expert, to uncover the secrets behind building company culture that not only survives but thrives. Greg opens up about his journey, including the hard-hitting lessons from the 2008 financial crisis, where he faced immense failure and personal reinvention.

Together, we discuss the importance of defining culture, the role of frontline leaders in shaping it, and Greg’s revolutionary Four Dimensions of Culture framework. From understanding how to align teams to setting non-negotiable values, Greg offers practical, actionable strategies for leaders at all levels.

We also explore the transformative power of honest conversations—the “last 10%” of feedback that can make or break an organization. Whether you're looking to create a stronger team, redefine your business culture, or simply grow as a leader, this episode is packed with insights you can't afford to miss.

Connect with Greg Cagle:

As a transformational coach and culture expert, Greg Cagle brings unmatched insights into leadership and organizational growth. Visit GOCagle.com to explore his work, learn more about his frameworks, and grab a copy of his impactful book, The Four Dimensions of Culture. 

Books Mentioned:

• The Four Dimensions of Culture by Greg Cagle 

Join the New Catalytic Leadership Community

Check out our new online membership site, with new resources by Dr. William Attaway and his team added weekly: https://checkout.catalyticleadership.net/

Chapters

• 0:01 Authentic Leadership Journey
• 3:15 Facing Catastrophic Failure
• 9:31 Redefining Culture in Business
• 14:50 The Four Dimensions Framework
• 22:27 Frontline Leaders Shape Culture
• 34:47 The Last 10% of Honesty
• 39:40 Leadership Growth and Impact

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

It is an honor today to have Greg Cagle on the podcast. Greg is a passionate advocate for authenticity, a transformational executive coach, a corporate culture consultant, an author and a speaker, leveraging more than 25 years of in-the-trenches experience in building and leading his own companies. Greg comes alongside leaders in God's companies to position them for breakthrough success in building a culture that blows away the competition. With his proven let's do this approach, greg has served top organizations like McCormick, planet Fitness, steel Dynamics, the Army Special Operations and the FDA. Greg's focus is on getting innovative, creative results that empower leaders and teams from around the world to outperform their competition and achieve more than they ever believed possible in business and in life. Greg, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Greg Cagle: 1:03

I'm excited about it. Thanks for having me.

Intro/Outro: 1:07

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:24

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

Greg Cagle: 1:34

Well, so I got started at a very young age. I want to look back. I kind of consider myself a serial entrepreneur Out of school. I really only had one job and I knew pretty early on that just didn't fit for me and I was naive enough to think that I could just go out and do my own thing. And so, with a little bit of capital and some creative financing, I started my first business at the age of 28.

Greg Cagle: 2:02

It's funny if I had known then what I know now, I probably would have never attempted a new business, but I was. As I said, I was just naive enough to think I could, and it turns out I was able to be relatively successful with that. And so for for from from that period on, I just loved business and I love the idea of starting things. I would build something, get it to a certain stage and then you know, for whatever reason, I get bored or whatever and I sell it and then you know, move on to the next thing. And so my journey has been one of just kind of discovery along the way of new ventures and building businesses. I've been in entertainment business, restaurant business. I've had my own sales and marketing and advertising firm, Built a very sizable real estate company at one time, which was an interesting venture because we built that up to a very, very substantial size company in excess of $200 million in sales.

Greg Cagle: 3:06

And then I was a participant in the financial crisis that was led by the real estate market, if you remember, back in 2008. The interesting thing there is that was probably my most successful endeavor, but it was also my most painful, when everything crumbled. You might remember, William, everything happened so fast that there was no escaping it. And one day you wake up and you're on top of the mountain. The next day you wake up and you've got six in my case, six different banks coming after you for all kinds of things. So it was a real, real ordeal, and when I look back on it, I wouldn't have chosen that route for anything in the world. Like I said, it was extremely painful. I lost over $22.5 million of wealth. I lost over $22.5 million of wealth and literally was facing living under the bridge oh my goodness. And so that was not fun, and it was two years of that process before everything crumbled completely. But when I look back on it, to be honest, I wouldn't take anything for it, because it led me into things and endeavors that I never would have considered, or certainly attempted, had I not been desperate.

Greg Cagle: 4:35

I think it was Tony Robbins that said necessity is the mother of skill. Well, I had to develop some new skill, and so what I did is, which is kind of what brought me to where I am today. There was here I was a middle-aged man, for all practical purposes bankrupt, and I said you know, I got to start over. What am I going to do? Job market wasn't really anything and nobody really wanted to hire me. Because every time I talked to somebody about a job, they said well, either they told me you're overqualified. I said but you don't understand, I need a job. They either said you're overqualified or they said well, we're just not going to hire you because you've always been in business for yourself. We just don't think you can work for anybody.

Greg Cagle: 5:15

Anyway, long story short, I did some real evaluation and I said look, the one thing I know, I know how to lead companies, I understand people, I've worked with people all of my life and I know business and I love entrepreneurship. So that kind of started me down the road of beginning to consult with entrepreneurs, beginning to offer up expertise, which led into literally some training. That I did with a John Maxwell company for a while on leadership, yeah. Then I started writing my own training content based on my own experience and wrote a few books. And then the crowning moment was getting on. Your podcast Went through all that in 2008 to get me right here. My goodness, what a journey.

Greg Cagle: 6:11

That's a journey and let me just say I think your better days are ahead, but I don't know if it's going to get any better than this. I think it might?

Dr. William Attaway: 6:19

I think it might. I appreciate you sharing so openly there, greg, because that's a painful season. Like you said, it's not one anybody would choose, not if they know what's in it.

Greg Cagle: 6:31

But you didn't have a choice sold a very successful business, started, built, sold a very successful business, did that four times and then entered into this real estate business and, honestly, william, it grew bigger than I'd ever could have fathomed. At one time we had over $400 million worth of real estate holdings of some sort in some form of development or construction. My goodness, for a poor boy from a little small town in Mississippi it was a big deal, and so I never really experienced failure, much less catastrophic failure. So honestly and I know you have a lot of entrepreneurs that are listeners they'll understand what it's like to lay awake on a Tuesday night wondering if you're going to make payroll on Friday and going through all the things that entrepreneurs go through. And then you finally build your business and you get there and you enjoy the success. And then the catastrophic situation that I went through. I mean it's devastating, catastrophic situation that I went through. I mean it's devastated what happens, and I'm sure you can relate to this, because I mean everybody has these defining moments in their life. If you live long enough, you're going to have them. But you really do a lot of soul searching and guess what I would say today, the work that I do, as you mentioned in the introduction, I do a lot of executive coaching with entrepreneurs and I do consulting work for building great corporate culture and company culture within organizations and I do a lot of advising stuff with that and then some keynote speaking.

Greg Cagle: 8:17

But the passion that I am able to bring to that is a result of knowing what I've walked in their shoes, know what it feels like, and I, when I look at them or I talk to them or I'm in an, you know, on a stage looking at an audience of entrepreneurs, it's like, hey, I can look at them and say, hey, what I'm about to talk to you about is theory, that's right. And so I wouldn't be able to have the passion that I do in the book you know my latest book, the things that you focus on and that you struggle with and that you worry about, about a business, we tend to not focus on culture, and my experience has taught me, if you're a business leader and you are an entrepreneur, get the culture right, and if you get the culture right, a lot of things happen that are magical, and so that passion of actual failure drove me into kind of what I'm doing now and it's amazingly satisfying, amazingly satisfying.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:42

Your book. I love culture. I love talking about culture. I was just yesterday talking with a business owner about this and one thing that he's really been struggling with is culture and building. His business is four years old. They've built it to just over $3 million.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:59

And he has great aspirations for where it's going to go from here. One of the things he recognized was the power of culture and how he had not been intentional about that as much as he could have been and maybe should have been. I was reading your book and I was thinking about that conversation and thinking, hey, you know, and this is going to be one, and I'm going to send him a link to this book because I think this is one that's really going to help him what inspired you to write this? I mean the four dimensions of culture. What inspired you to put these words on paper?

Greg Cagle: 10:31

I love that question, william, and the answer is very easy for me because in my work and advising and working with leaders, I discovered something. If you talk to 20 leaders and you ask them, hey, do you think culture is an important element in business? They won't hesitate. All 20 leaders. If you were talking to 20 leaders, all 20 of them would say, absolutely, really important. Some would go way out there and say, hey, it may be the most important thing to focus on. And if you ask them, hey, do you have a good culture at your company? They could tell you if it was good, they could tell you if it had its better days, if it needed help, all that, but ask those same 20 leaders and then you define culture and you'll get 25 answers. That's good.

Greg Cagle: 11:20

So what I set out to do with this book is, in all of my years of working with leaders, leading organizations, the mistakes that I've made, the mistakes I've seen others make, and even successes I set out to do two things hey, let's define culture in a way that everyone in the organization can get their head around it, because culture is in everybody's sport and we all have to understand what is culture and what role do I play in that. So I set out to give us a definition that everybody could go, wow, that's it. It's it, because it's not pool tables and beanbag chairs and ping pong tables and all that stuff that people normally think about. It's real and it's organic and it's a big part. So that was number one. And then number two was like okay, if we can define culture, what is a framework for building one that executes on all of our business initiatives?

Greg Cagle: 12:22

So we set out and we built this framework and it's four distinct dimensions. One, as you know, if you read the book, is a negative one, and we look to eradicate that or minimize it. But then there are three other dimensions of every culture on every business. There are no exceptions. What is the order and structure in your business and is it healthy? We call that the compliant dimension.

Greg Cagle: 12:44

You know what about performance and achievement and performance metrics? What does that look like and how do you embed that in your culture? That's the committed dimension. And then there's, of course, no business can survive the long periods of time or be sustainable without incremental innovation, improvement and creativity. And so that's the courageous dimension and we outline that framework components so that they're sustainable, so that they contribute to all aspects of the business and that they're evenly balanced so that one doesn't get out of kilter and cause issues within the culture. Long answer to a short question, but that was the motivation. How do we define culture? And give me a framework on how I can build a really good one in my organization, and that was what pushed me to do it.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:37

I love that and I love the framework because it was very easy to grab onto and I could recognize it in every organization I've ever been a part of. I could immediately say, oh yeah, that's oh yeah, and it's a template that can overlay on, like you say, any business, any organization. Yeah, as you're thinking about this, sometimes I get in talking to a CEO or talking to a founder. You know they get the importance of culture. They get that. That's just not an area they're super passionate about, and so they try to delegate the responsibility for culture to somebody else on the team. Maybe it's their number two, maybe it's somebody further down the line. They say you're going to be in charge of company culture, does that?

Greg Cagle: 14:18

work. I don't want to say that it doesn't, but it certainly makes it harder, and here's the reason why. One of the things that I say in the book is every leader casts a shadow over the culture, and what I mean by that is many organizations have multiple managers and leaders within the organization. One bad leader can cast a negative shadow over their aspect of the business and it can create a problem. But the biggest shadow cast by any leader is always the top leader and, in the case of the founder, the personality of the business, what's important, the initiatives, the values that contribute to decision-making, filters within the culture all of that really needs to be led by the top leader. Now, when I say led by the top leader, I'll tell you another mistake, William, that some leaders make. They'll decide here's the culture we want and they'll go to the people in the business here's our core values, here's the culture we're going after, and all the people in the business are like, okay, we had no contribution to that, there's no passion for it, because we didn't help build it. And one of the things that I really enjoy doing is working with top leaders to bring in the necessary people to contribute to the construction process and we just did this with a company that is a lobbying company and their culture was really in trouble. It wasn't toxic or negative, it just was like schizophrenic multiple personalities Yikes. And we just went through this process and we brought everyone in William I wished I had taped the session because we spent two days together.

Greg Cagle: 16:14

The excitement in this room was inspiring to me. The people said number one, we understand this framework, this is easy. And, number two, we've been begging for this. So they together, collectively and collaboratively, built this thing. They determined the values necessary to have the kind of culture they wanted. They determined the way that they wanted the organization or the people in the organization to think, the actions they wanted to reward and promote and the rules of engagement for interaction that built the kind of culture they wanted. So this was like eight, nine months ago and I was just on a coaching call with the leader of that company and he said man, I have got to tell you, things here are so different. We are on fire and that is so satisfying. And the only thing I always think when I have an experience like that is I think I want to, I think where was I when I was running those. I needed me to come in and do that, because I made every mistake in the book.

Intro/Outro: 17:19

Every one of them.

Dr. William Attaway: 17:22

Well, that's probably what makes you a great coach, because you can recognize them. I've lived them, I have driven into these ditches. I'd like to help you avoid them.

Greg Cagle: 17:31

Absolutely, absolutely. No question about it.

Dr. William Attaway: 17:35

So you mentioned, you know, bringing people together to talk about culture. How do you know who should be in that room?

Greg Cagle: 17:43

That is a probably an art more than a science, and when I work with business leaders, I go through a process of interviewing to talk about hey, who are the people that are already influencers in your organization? And I know this won't surprise you, it's not always entitled leaders. They're going to be part of the process, don't get me wrong, but many times the influencers are a lot closer to the front line than you would think. In fact, if a business leader says hey, let's go do a two-day retreat and we're going to map out our culture and everything, and my first thing is all right, talk to me who the attendants are.

Greg Cagle: 18:25

If I don't perceive that there's some manager or leader that's close to the front line, one or two of those, I say can we rethink this? Because although culture is started at the top, it really is built from the front line or the bottom up, and our goal every time we work with a company, our goal is we say our goal is to create front line obsession in representing the brand and culture does that Love, that Culture does that. And so I don't know that I answered your question other than I would say I wouldn't say there's an absolute formula or an equation. It's an art form and you feel your way around. You ask a lot of questions and then you make sure there's representation in the right places. That are part of that process.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:56

I love that intentionality of including frontline leaders, not just C-suite leaders, not just those at the senior leadership level, but bringing in people who are close to the front, the customer facing leaders. That's a piece that I think a lot of leaders listening may have missed when they start having those culture conversations. They think that's a foot view conversation when in reality, exactly what you said the ones on the front are the ones carrying it.

Greg Cagle: 21:25

Well, I like the term you use, charles, in FlipView, because if you ask a business leader to make business decisions from one viewpoint, he would say, well, that's a formula for failure, right? But yet when we're going to talk about something as important as constructing the organizational culture, they're willing to do it from one viewpoint the C-suite. They're willing to do it from one viewpoint the c-suite. And and you know, I tell them all the time, you know, this is a, this needs to be a three-dimensional look and we need perspectives from every angle. Otherwise, think about this way. You know this already.

Greg Cagle: 21:59

But if we construct this in the sweet, it's easy for me to say c-suite and we pass that down and say here's, here's who we are, this is what we're about, here are the values we want to live out. Yada, yada, yada, yada. All it really is is just another. Well, here comes another initiative handed down from the ivory tower. Yes, yes, what incentive, passion, commitment, attachment do the frontline people have in living that out? So true, do the frontline people have in living that out? And I know many of your listeners have frontline employees that are representing their company, and if they're not passionate and excited and engaged and motivated, inspired about what they're representing. The customer feels it, and so how can you be inspired and passionate, engaged and have a voice if you didn't have a contribution? And so we're really, really, we're really, really big on getting more people in the room, not just selective people in a room. That's good, they're the right people.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:05

That's. That's. That's so intentional. I've heard this talked about, as this is thought about putting more words on the wall. It's about what happens down the hall.

Greg Cagle: 23:16

Well, that's very good.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:19

And I've always thought about culture in those terms. So often we think that culture is just the words on the wall. It's just those cultural values, the core values, the mission, the vision, all of that Culture is how it happens down the hall.

Greg Cagle: 23:31

It really is. And, to your point, I get to go into all kinds of different companies and all kinds of industries and got been in 23 different countries, and so I get to see not only different industries but different cultures within a particular industry and I love it. When I start talking to leaders, I say well, tell me a little bit about your organization. Do you have your core values? Oh, yeah, we've got a mission statement, We've got a vision statement. You know X, Y, Z statement, We've got every statement you can have. That's awesome and you'll go into the organization, walk up to anyone anywhere in the building. Hey, tell me about your core values, Blank. Do you know what the mission statement? Blank? You want to know why that is the case most of the time Because, to your point, you brought this up brilliantly. Actually, it was constructed and dialogued in the C-suite, put on the walls, publicized through a company newsletter and an email chain or whatever. And all of a sudden, we expect magic to happen and everybody to be engaged and build it out. We just did.

Greg Cagle: 24:42

You mentioned Planet Fitness in the bio. We just did something with Planet Fitness a couple of years ago where they had their values and they did a great job of promoting them. They did a great job. They had Values, Day, and this and that and the other, but they forgot one key element and it was killing their culture. So what they didn't do is they just had these values, but they didn't have any real definition of what those values meant and how you live them out. So, for example, one of their values this is a great example. One of their values was be kind and respectful. So that sounds like a great value, but think about it. That leaves it up to the interpretation of everyone else of what does that look like? How do I live that out?

Greg Cagle: 25:32

The leader of the company comes to me and goes you know, one of the problems we have in our company is we don't have spirited debate. We don't have people challenging things. And he said we're never going to survive if we don't do that. And I said well, let's let them know that kind and respectful means it's not kind to not debate something if you have a difference. So we didn't change the values, we just put legs to it and we said look, it is disrespectful to have a side conversation at the water cooler after the meeting. And so we realized it changed the whole game. But what we did is we brought people in and we said what does it mean to be kind and respectful to you? And have you ever thought about this? Well, no, I haven't. Have you ever been angry or disagreed with a co-worker, but because you wanted to live out the value, you didn't confront it. So what a lot of people thought was kind of respectful to me.

Greg Cagle: 26:29

We don't debate, we don't argue, we don't. You know, and you and I both know, if you're not debating and you're not challenging each other, you're not growing. That's right. I'm sorry, I went down a road you probably didn't want to go down.

Dr. William Attaway: 26:41

No, it was brilliant. No, that's exactly super helpful and I think it's very practical, because the people who are listening have got to be able to take something as cloudy as culture sometimes can be and begin to put feet to it and put this on the ground and say, OK, now what does this look like? So we can take it apart and then begin to reconstruct it in our businesses, in our teams, in our cultures. William, you just used a word.

Greg Cagle: 27:05

Can I reverse this process and ask you a question, because you just used the perfect word, I think. Here's what you said and I want to ask you why you think this is. You said something as cloudy as culture and that is a great description, because that, again, that's why I wrote the book. In my coaching, I decided I'm going to ask every leader that I work with how do you define culture? And I'll tell you a little story about that if we have time, because it's a hilarious story. This is a guy that works in a Fortune 50 company now and he's very high up and I was coaching him and we went through that exercise in Solaris. But I want to get back to what you said. You said something as clowny as culture. William, help me out here. Why do you think culture is cloudy? Because it is, but it shouldn't be. But why is it?

Dr. William Attaway: 28:01

I think it's because people have a very difficult time with the tension between the day-to-day. We're trying to drive new business. We're trying to drive bottom line or top line revenue and bottom line profit. We have aggressive business goals oh yeah, we've got to foster a positive culture, whatever that means. And there's a tension there and I think when that tension exists, what we want to do as individuals, when we feel tension, we want to resolve it. Right, we're going to resolve it one way or the other.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:37

The problem is, if you resolve that particular tension, you lose something really important. If you only focus on the aggressive business goals and you ignore culture, I don't need to tell you Like I mean, that's what the whole book is about the danger of that. But if you say, no, no, we're only going to focus on culture, it's going to be all about that, we're going to dial this in and everything else, yeah, it'll come along. And you don't have real goals and KPIs and targets Well, that doesn't go well either. And targets Well, that doesn't go well either. You cannot resolve this tension. You have to hold these two things in tension, and most people are not comfortable holding things in tension. They want to resolve them. That's my thought. I love that description.

Greg Cagle: 29:18

I love it. And let me ask you this Do you think because I've experienced this with leaders before I think a lot of leaders shy away from crew focus and roll up shirt sleeves and build culture, because they think that when they think of culture, they think warm and fuzzy and, yes, you know kumbaya?

Greg Cagle: 29:39

Butterflies and rainbows and sit around and trust falls and Organizations where we, you know, we've built culture around being tough as nails and building a culture around tough love and being in the culture around. Hey, you have a responsibility to hold your peer accountable. That kind of culture, and I would love for your listeners to know if they're listening to this thinking. Oh well, here's another guy talking about. You know, a peri-feri land of beautiful culture. Man, it's not that. No, it's not you mentioned. It's not and it's not me. In fact, this faithful operations group that I work with some four-star generals, asked me to come in and speak on this.

Intro/Outro: 30:25

And.

Greg Cagle: 30:25

I can tell. When I got there it was like 25 of them in the room and they do this this once a year and they were kind enough to ask me to come and speak because one of the guys had read my book and he said how about you come in and talk? And you could just tell that these army generals and they're in the special operations group, so they're the real tough guy, and they're sitting. You could tell they're like here comes some guy from the outside that's going to tell us to be all you know this and that. And, man, when I finished talking to them it was 45 minutes to get away because they were coming up and going. You mean to tell me that we can build this kind of culture and make it set? I said absolutely. Anyway, I loved your word cloudy.

Greg Cagle: 31:08

That is a perfect description because I think, most business owners leaders walking around with a cloudy understanding of what culture really is, and so if it's cloudy, you don't really address it do you?

Dr. William Attaway: 31:27

No, you don't, and that doesn't help anybody. No no.

Greg Cagle: 31:31

Am I allowed to drink my coffee. Of course you are. Absolutely, you've got to think we're filming this.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:36

I grew up in Alabama. Okay, I like things to be simple. We're in. Alabama I want outside of Birmingham, hoover, close to Hoover, yes, in fact.

Greg Cagle: 31:46

I have a client in Hoover, Alabama. Well, there you go.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:48

Let me tell them my first 11 years were in Fairfield, and then we moved over to Bluff Park in Hoover.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:55

Okay, yeah absolutely yeah, but it'll been a while, been a minute, but that's where I grew up. I like things to be simple and I like to talk about things in a way that people can understand them, and when we bring new people onto our team, one of the pieces of our culture that I try to impart immediately is what I call the last 10% of honesty, and this comes from my experience, and I think this is so important to the culture that we're trying to build. I want people to understand that the first 90% of honesty is really easy to give, and most of us give that without thinking about it. But we do not give the last 10%. We hold that back because we don't want to damage a relationship, we don't want to break a relationship, we don't want to get fired sometimes, and so we hold it back.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:40

The problem is the last 10% of honesty is where transformation lives, that's where the magic is, that is so powerful, and so one of the things I tell our team is I don't just have this desire for us to be last 10% of honesty, people with each other. That is my expectation and that is what we are going to be and that is a non-negotiable. That's a part of our culture that I guard so strongly, because I believe that is how we serve our clients better. That's how we do what we do at a high level of excellence, by giving each other the last 10%. It is not always fun and I do not always actually want it, but I always value it because I know we need it.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:26

That's how we get better.

Greg Cagle: 33:28

I got to tell you that is inspiring right there. Not only just what you said about the last 10% never thought about in a million years, and you're right, honesty isn't hard. Just the last 10%. Never thought about it in a million years, and you're right, honesty isn't hard. Just the last 10% of it is the hard part. I love that. What kind of culture are you going to have if nobody ever enters into that 10% zone? Right, exactly, it's going to be very nice.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:55

It's going to be very nice.

Greg Cagle: 33:56

Very kind, it'll fail very nicely, that's right. And then you said two other words. You used the word expectation and non-negotiable. And listen, your listeners need to hear you say this, because culture is about your non-negotiables. In fact, it should sound like this that's good If you come to work for my company, or no? Let me reverse that. I come to work for your company and you sit me down and you say Greg, welcome aboard. We think we've made a good hire, we're excited about you being here and we're excited about the contribution you're going to make. But I want to make sure you understand some things. I want you to be successful here. Make sure you understand some things, because I want you to be successful here.

Greg Cagle: 34:42

If you want to be successful here, here's how you need to think. You need to think that the last 10 of honesty is gravely important and it's non-negotiable. You need to act in a way that it is an expectation and when you interact with your peers, the expectation is the last 10% of honesty Because, as you know, in the book I define culture as the way we think, act and interact. And when you say the word non-negotiable and expectation, you're telling me, as an employee, welcome aboard. Non-negotiable and expectation you're telling me as an employee I'm a born, I think this way, but we expect you to act this way and we expect your interactions to be guided by 10% of the last 10% of honesty. That leaves me no room to misunderstand. And if you do it right, then you say, okay, go to work.

Greg Cagle: 35:36

Now I'm over here working with my peers. I don't live up to that expectation. And who calls me out? You, no, my peers. That's right, because they love the culture and they don't mean messing it up. And they say hey, greg, I don't know where you came from. We don't do it that way here. Now we're going to give you a pass this time, but next time we're in a meeting, the 10% honesty doesn't happen in the meeting, after the meeting, it happens in the meeting, to my face, right. I mean, that's a beautiful example right there of giving culture roots. You've got me excited.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:15

I want to come to work for you Only if you give the last 10%, I can do that.

Greg Cagle: 36:19

Just ask my wife, she'll tell you, I can do that.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:23

That's awesome, greg. I could talk to you for another hour. I just I want to ask a couple questions. I ask everybody because I think you are a leader and you have led so well and so diligently for so long and now you help other people to do the same. You know your clients and your team need you to lead at a higher level now than they did five years ago, and the same thing is going to be true five years from now.

Greg Cagle: 36:48

I hope I'm still relevant in five years.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:51

If you continue learning, I have no doubt and you do. That's who you are. How do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the new leadership skills that your business, your team, your clients are going to need you to have?

Greg Cagle: 37:07

So I got fortunate at a very early age, I want to say maybe as late as or as early as my late 20s. I had a guy we called him Bo I don't know what his real name was, we just all called him Bo but he was a mentor of mine and I was 27, 28 years old when Bo was around. He was in his late 50s and he said something to me one time. I must have been 27 because I started my business when I was 28. So I was in a job and I'd gotten promoted into this beginning management position and I was all excited and I told Bill about it and he said let me give you some advice that you may not want to take. But he said when you're a leader, stay focused on impact and if you are always focused on the impact you're having on others, you'll do all the necessary things to get that done. That is the best advice I've ever heard in my lifetime. Because when, even at my age right now, and all the experience that I've had and the ups I've had, the downs, the success, the failures, everything when I go to work with someone, because I say no as much as I say yes, because if I interview with you and I don't think I can impact you. I don't want to do it, not because I'm arrogant, but because it makes me feel like a failure. And so when you're constantly making sure that impact is your focus, then you're reading books to stay on top of your game, you're doing research, you're doing all the necessary things to make sure that you're still relevant, to make sure that you're still in front of the game, and boy, I just was fortunate. I was fortunate for two reasons. He told me that and I actually listened, and that's the way I approach leadership from that point forward. Have I made some mistakes, done some bad leadership things? Absolutely, but always with the heart of. Am I impacting the right way? Father, who had the worst box ever? And I talk a lot of times about dinner table leadership, because when I was a kid, I used to sit at the dinner table and every evening at the dinner table, sooner or later, my mother would always ask my dad the same question and she would always get the same answer.

Greg Cagle: 39:31

But she always asked him. She would say how was your day? And he would go off in a tirade about how horrible his day was, how much he hated his job and everything else because he had this leader who didn't care about his people. And I think that combination of that and Bo's advice of impact, I know what negative impact looks like. I saw my father, who I admired and loved beyond words miserable because of a leader that didn't care about the impact he was having on the four people sitting at our dinner table every night. So I think it's just a motivation of wanting to make sure that you're on top of your game so that you can impact. And what leadership is about? It's not about your success, it's about the success of those you've been entrusted to lead, and that's your impact. Right, so good.

Dr. William Attaway: 40:23

As you continually learn, as you are continually in that growth posture, is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? Hey, if you haven't read this one, this is worth your time.

Greg Cagle: 40:37

I'll give you two. One is an oldie but a goodie, and probably 90% of your listeners have heard of it and most of them probably read it Seven Habits of Highly Successful People by Stephen Covey. I've read that book probably four or five times and every time I read it something else jumps out at me. But there are seven things in there that, man, those are tried and true principles and they've made a huge difference in my life. That one I read early on.

Greg Cagle: 41:02

I read another one recently when I say recently, last two or three years and it's almost spurring another book in my mind that I think I want to write. But it's a phenomenal book by a neuroscience guy and the title of that is called breaking the habit of being yourself and it really helps people dive into the idea that you are the biggest thing holding you back and you need to break the habit of of your thinking. Um, and, and the whole, the whole idea about it is your thinking leads to behaviors, behaviors lead to outcomes and we all live in this reality cycle and you have to break that cycle At some point. If you can change your thinking, you can change your behaviors. If you can change your behaviors, you can change your outcomes and if you keep yourself in the right emotional state, you'll view your outcomes with positivity. Even if they're failures, you'll see them as learning experience. And now the cycle begins to change.

Greg Cagle: 41:59

But it was. It was groundbreaking for me and I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but I'm going to do it right here on film on audio. It showed me that at my age I'm in my sixties I'd got some habits that are long standing, that needed to be broken many years ago, that have been holding deep. Wow, it was, it was, it was um, it was. It was impacted.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:25

My, I've got to check this out. I have not read that one. That's a good one. I'm going to check it out. Thank you for that. You're welcome, greg. This is. This has just been a fantastic conversation. I'm so grateful to you for being so generous with your time and with your insights and sharing so much that you've learned along the way in your journey so far, and I do believe your best days are still to come.

Greg Cagle: 42:48

I appreciate that.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:50

I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you and more about what you do. What is the best way for them to do that?

Greg Cagle: 42:58

Probably the best way is they can just go on my website. There's an opportunity for them to see more about what I do and what I offer and if I'm even something that would be for them and a way to contact me if they want to do that through the website is just, it's real simple. It's my two initials, g-o, last name, cagle, g-o, cagle or, I'm sorry, greg at gocaglecom.

Dr. William Attaway: 43:24

And we will have those links in the show notes. Yeah, as well as a link to your book. Well, I appreciate that this is one I'm going to challenge every one of our listeners to pick up and read. You're not going to regret it, I don't think they will. There's some fantastic information and frameworks that are going to help you think differently about this.

Greg Cagle: 43:40

Thank you so much, William, for having me. You are a phenomenal host and thanks for putting up with my ramblings.

Dr. William Attaway: 43:47

I love the conversation. Greg, Thank you for being here. Thank you, Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 44:26

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 45:10

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.