How To Master SaaS Business Growth With Matt DeSeno

How do you transition from freelancing to building an eight-figure SaaS empire, all while balancing family priorities? In this episode, I sit down with SaaS entrepreneur and coach Matt DeSeno, who shares his incredible journey from freelancing to leading multiple successful software ventures. We dive deep into the pain points of managing cash flow, navigating major crises, and creating scalable business models. Matt reveals how he overcame a cash flow crisis that threatened his business, embraced the power of recurring revenue, and leveraged innovative SaaS tools like HighLevel to build sustainable success.

Matt also opens up about balancing his personal life, especially during a life-changing moment when his son was in the NICU during the COVID-19 pandemic. He shares his secrets to setting clear boundaries, acting fast on ideas, and leading with intentionality. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned leader, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you build and scale your own SaaS business while staying true to your priorities.


Connect with Matt DeSeno:
 
 I’m so grateful to have had Matt DeSeno on the show today. If you’re ready to scale your SaaS business or learn actionable strategies for sustainable growth, connect with Matt on Instagram at @MattDesino and DM him 'Breaking 100' for free resources to help you get started. 

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Check out our new online membership site, with new resources by Dr. William Attaway and his team added weekly: https://checkout.catalyticleadership.net/

Chapters

• 0:01 Freelancing Foundations
• 2:20 Scaling Challenges and Cash Flow
• 6:04 Embracing SaaS Innovation
• 10:40 Balancing Family and Business
• 14:02 Lessons from Crisis
• 19:36 Sustainable Leadership Practices
• 25:05 Future Goals and Actionable Insights

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm so honored and excited today to have Matt DeCno on the podcast. Matt is a seasoned SaaS entrepreneur and coach, the founder of HL Pro Tools and a committed front row dad and husband. He has equipped thousands of aspiring SaaS entrepreneurs with the strategies to build profitable businesses. He strives to be an indispensable ally for those looking to scale and thrive. Matt, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Matt DeSeno: 0:28

Yeah, excited to be here.

Intro/Outro: 0:31

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway. And leadership and executive coach, Dr William.

Dr. William Attaway: 0:45

Attaway, I'd love to start with a little bit of your story for our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

Matt DeSeno: 0:57

Yeah, I started off freelancing. So, honestly, for me it was like the agency space. It's like get a skill and then sell that skill, and so I guess call this the pre-agency space. It's like get a skill and then sell that skill, and so I guess call this the pre-agency space. My background not even background, but literally in eighth grade I took a programming class and I loved the idea that I could. It was a different language that kind of just unlocked. And so through college, and even, I guess, through high school and college, I just dabbled in web development mostly. But so I picked up things like JavaScript. And then, in terms of frameworks, back in the day, there was WordPress. I mean, it's still a huge behemoth, but this was 2006, 2007 to 2010, 2012. And so I started.

Matt DeSeno: 1:39

So I graduated from college and I got a job because I was like I'm not going home. So I just found a job of, uh, just a local business in the area and I realized there was one other agency in the city I was in. This was in Malibu and I was like I did a little research, I found out their minimum price was 10 K for a website and I was like I would, I would do a website for less than 10 K, and so I uh started. I started freelancing I mean, it really was freelancing. I did formalize like a business entity, but it was a business of one, and I put together the digital storefront of. I'm an agency, but it was just me Set out a goal to do. I was like I'll charge 5K, I want to do 20 websites, I want to make 100K, and that's how it began.

Dr. William Attaway: 2:26

Wow, how did you go from there To where I'm at, to where you are now?

Matt DeSeno: 2:35

Because agency world is very unique among even among entrepreneurs, yeah for sure. So the short story is 2012 to 2016,. We just did web dev and I had a lot of, I made a lot of good connections, so I would, I would surf, I'd meet people. Malibu was just a great city because it happened, though, there was a lot of established business owners that knew other business owners that had big budgets, so I quickly grew past the 5k you know kind of price point there and and um realized I sort of had a knack for sales, or at least the relational development side of it, and the got some good strategic partners out of Santa Monica. They would send us business and jobs and deals.

Matt DeSeno: 3:15

2014, I got married. 2015, we bought our first house and, um, that year we bought the house that needed no work, and then we decided to fix the whole thing up, and I I had like a few years of like always up into the right, and I was still young and ignorant, and so I we just started, we just started spending Like it was nobody's business, and so we got into a cashflow crisis at the end of the year because we would do these formal proposals, and so, literally from October to January, I mean to through December, I everything we bid they're like sounds great, we're going to go with you, we'll start January 1st and, um, all of our stuff was like you know, it was a job shop bid it out, pay, do the project be done, move on with your life. And so in this I think, I built a small team, three or four of us there, and so I had some fixed expenses and I just saw cashflow going the opposite direction, and I didn't know it at the time, but I had a limiting belief that if I ever ran out of money I'd become the worst version of my father. So that was a little bit of like a demon that I was running from. I didn't fully know it but for but this idea of this I was. I was not, I'm not a type, a personality, but I've tracked every dime in and out of my life, personally and not professionally, from college on, like just Google spreadsheets. I can tell you how much I spent on Starbucks in March of 2017. I just sort of like weirdly OCD, but just about the money side of it, and I realized later on that's why. But so this was devastating me in December to go to my wife and be like we're out of money. We can't. I was always like a debt. I was like we have to carry debt. So even I like ah, and so this it was the first shift where I was like I got to do something recurring that they want to pay me ASAP. So I was like I got to learn marketing.

Matt DeSeno: 4:55

And so that was 2016,. You know, the jobs came in in January. We survived, it was all fine, but I just immediately shifted to I wanted recurring and selling something that they wanted yesterday, not something that'd be nice to have three months from now. And so I went into learning the world of marketing and just Googling and YouTubing and we evolved into a performance-based marketing agency. So all the way up until 2018, we were doing these deals, whereas it was pay-per-performance and we had good relationships and great standings and we just did boring, steadfast business stuff. We focused on appointment-based businesses that could do a pay-per-show model or a pay-per-sale model. Largely, that meant it was brick and mortar and we evolved and kind of grew out of California. It was like our region, that's where we served. It was just businesses in California, because that's how we were able to continue to stack clients.

Matt DeSeno: 5:45

Um, in 2018, I uh, I, we had accidentally become kind of affiliates because we we'd gotten a book of business, a few hundred clients, and so every client would come on if anybody recalls doing marketing in those days and you'd sign them up for like seven different softwares. I just had to. It was like you gotta, you gotta sign up for Skippy out at send text messages, you gotta sign up for Skippy out at send text messages, you gotta sign up for you know, zapier to do automation. You gotta sign up for ClickFunnels to do funnel building. And so we had a good, um, good little chunk of affiliate marketing and one of the affiliates, uh, drew me out. It was actually the first affiliate thing I ever started was Shopify.

Matt DeSeno: 6:18

So in 2012 to 2016, we kind of fell into the Shopify space accidentally. We kind of fell into the Shopify space accidentally and it was just. There was a couple of e-com health and wellness brands, national brands, that I surfed with the owners, the CEOs, and that's how we started doing these deals and we launched these sites and you get a percentage 20% of whatever they're doing. They were often beyond the standard plans, so they're paying thousands of dollars to Shopify and I'm getting a cut of that and I did not expect it at all. So it grew up to a pretty sizable chunk and one month in 2018, it just disappeared, totally vanished.

Matt DeSeno: 6:50

And so that's when I then I then thought, oh, like. In my mind. I was like man, this affiliate stuff is going to be my retirement. Oh no, this disappears. And so then then I got fixated with the idea of, like man, we need to own the things that we're referring to. So then I wanted to get into software. I was like we got to do software. We got to refer to ourselves. Essentially is what I wanted to do is own more of the software brands.

Matt DeSeno: 7:17

And that's where, in December of 2018, some people were teasing out hey, have you heard of this thing's launching? And it was high level, no-transcript people in the Facebook group, and the premise was you could rebrand. The software Didn't do everything, it did like a few things, but you could rebrand as your own and kind of just control the process. They were like it's fixed price, put unlimited clients on there, and for us it's just right place, right time. And so we took a few months I joke, you know, in the early days, for us it was well one.

Matt DeSeno: 7:54

The signup process in those days. It was very sketchy looking the funnel like in the signup process. It said like if you got questions, call this number. Who does that Like it? It like says like please don't just buy, like please call us. So I call, and I get this guy whose answer is just like like he's walking outside like hello, and I immediately was like I'm so sorry, someone's scamming and they put your cell phone on like this website, and he's like no, no, no, no, this is real and it was Sean of the founder, it was his cell phone. He's like no, no, no, it's real. Like high level, this is, this is us, this is me. And so that's started the relationship. I asked him like is this real, is this legit? He's like yeah, yeah, so we get started.

Matt DeSeno: 8:33

There was a couple of things that we needed early on for us felt foundational, like custom fields, like dynamic values, like that didn't even exist, they just two-way text messages. We could connect our Twilio account to it and it worked. That was already good. It was already a leap in the right direction. I see people come in now like it doesn't have enough features. I'm like, oh my gosh, I started with like one and it didn't have custom fields for the contacts. So I told him he's like, do the idea board. I did it and I'm a bad politician, it's still.

Matt DeSeno: 9:00

My first post in the group was like please vote for this. No one voted. It's like you know. He said if you pay us five grand a month, we'll just build out whatever you want. And so that's how we started in in high levels. We had this five grand a month plan and the idea board was whatever like. It was like there's the idea board. And then there was like us saying, hey, here's what we need. And it was great, the timeline there. And so if anybody enjoys custom fields in high level, you're welcome, but thank you. So that's how we were able to launch. And back in the day there was no funnel builder inside of high level and so I don't know if I actually have it here. I'll push my camera over if you want to see that award over there. That was us selling high level via a ClickFunnels funnel. They didn't have a funnel.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:43

That's awesome.

Matt DeSeno: 9:44

And so it was. That was the only way you could do it, and so we spun up a brand sold that kept us on that.

Matt DeSeno: 9:51

A year later, covid hits, and this was the next big pivot for us was we were running in tandem performance-based marketing paper show model, if anyone's familiar with that and so we get deals and I do net 30, net 60 terms Um, meaning we do the work and they pay us a month or two months later after, like they came in, they showed up and it was great. I was like easy to sell, low barrier Cause it was like nothing to get started, we owned all the risk and we could do higher ticket things. So our average retainer um was about nine, nine K a month and so it was great. And so for a few hundred businesses I was riding high big team costs Cause we were still running certain processes and so in that time we invested into some other tech to make it easier and higher leverage for us on on some of the processes of like appointment setting, cause I used to just like hire college students to literally do the dialing on these leads. You're running the ad like all those so literally do the dialing on these.

Matt DeSeno: 10:42

Oh wow, you're running the ad like all those, all this sort of stuff here and COVID hit at the same time. My wife and I were expecting, but actually we're expecting like six, seven weeks later. So my wife's water broke almost seven weeks early. We go into the hospitals and COVID, shutdown happens, and so we were not prepared First time parents, all sorts of dynamic there, and the they kicked us out of the hospital. We're in California, they didn't really know what to do. It was like chaos zone, and so I I I had a high expectation of myself and being a father you can't tell it's a big, big motivating driver. For me it was, it was a, it was a demon that I was running from and then also, you know, wanted to be different, and so the but so we, they kicked us out of the hospital and put our son in the NICU and usually you can visit and be there 24, seven that's. But this was COVID and um, and so they literally said you can come back when he's ready to come out.

Matt DeSeno: 11:43

And I, well, I, just, I just bawled that night. I was like, and I honestly didn't even know fully the impact on the on the work side of it. But so what I resolved to do? I barely slept and I was like I'm gonna go in, uh, because I knew I could get kind of close. I couldn't get into the nicu, if anybody knows. You have like the hospital, then you've got the labor and delivery and then you got the NICU. It's like a lock, it is like they controlled it. But I knew policies. It was murky, especially in those early days, and so I would show up every morning, go through the ER with a car seat, a backpack and a lunchbox and say my son's in the NICU, go that door. But I knew I couldn't get into the NICU, so I would just go to the waiting room next to the NICU and that's where I'd work, cause I just wanted to be close to him. And so I just and it was a, it was a weird time, it was a ghost zone. They were converting labor and delivery into like, like, look like the white stuff. I mean LA didn't get hit like New York, but everyone thought like, is this what's going to happen, kind of a thing and so.

Matt DeSeno: 12:44

But that was where we had clients now saying, hey, sorry, we got shut, we can't operate, we're not going to be able to pay the invoice from January or the invoice from February, and it was a fight or flight season and I just remember the mantra in my mind was like money doesn't disappear, just shifts. And so, if you can imagine, here I am, I'm like I will fight for anything. There is my son, who I can't even hold walls away, and the business is crumbling around, and so in that space I mean it was, I say, hustle and PPP loans. Honestly, that kept us afloat, cause I had a team of about I think we're around 10 folks, and so I don't have to lay anybody off. But we just what we did is we started saying like what are we doing that's working? And are there other people like us who are just in different areas where they're not being hit? Like we're being hit?

Matt DeSeno: 13:35

And so we did two things we realized is one, we had built out a couple of resources in the high level space and then we had our team that was running support for our SAS brand and we had clients. Literally they would cancel the retainer, not even cancel, they would just not pay the retainer, but they would keep paying the software. But I held them as two separate brands so they didn't know that I could see they were still paying for the utility, but they stopped paying the service provider and, um, and it killed me a little bit. I so wanted to just like charge their credit card for what? What I was doing? Um, but I couldn't. Um, but it just it was a huge aha too, cause we were accidentally selling the software and this was like this should have been our intention, this should have been like the main focus, and so that spun out a couple of different. So then we just started to say can we license out what we're doing to other folks in the same place? And so we did. So.

Matt DeSeno: 14:27

That's how HL Projects was born. We spun out so ZappyChat, that was our AI solution. We created an AI integration for high level. This is 2020, you know, four years or three, three or four years before it got like popular and big Um. So we were doing um, that piece of it just cause we needed more leverage for the team appointment settings. Out of it, we were doing conversational appointment setting with AI 2019 for ourselves and 2020 to the other agency world there. And so the um, and I would have never imagined what it, what it.

Matt DeSeno: 14:56

And so now we've been able to launch, grow, partner with, acquire a number of other SaaS brands and primarily in the high-level ecosystem, so built on top of our rebrand. And so we just recently sold one of our brands it's called Cairo Dominance, it's public and so to a private equity firm. It was a seven-figure deal. Um, and this was, I think, we. We partnered, we bought out, uh, another owner share in 2021, and so in about two years maybe it was 2022, two or three years uh, we were able to scale and sell, and so that's that's what we do now, day in, day out.

Matt DeSeno: 15:38

If people are living using anything in the high level ecosystem, um, we. Now it's kind of cool to have the privileged position of seeing thousands of folks having traction with this, because that's what we do is we come alongside of them and help them launch grower scale, as well as just doing it for ourselves. So most of my attention is the day-to-day of uh. You know, I really enjoy the marketing side of it and I've just been really fortunate to make good hires and insulate for my weaknesses. So now we got, you know, 200 folks that are really great, administrative excellence and high-level competence just to like support either the agencies, their teams or their customers directly, and so we've been able to work with big brands like Tony Robbins, ryan Dice, frank Kern and have really great relationships with, I mean, like I said, thousands of other agencies. Tremendous, what a journey.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:05

Yeah, you mentioned and I read this in your bio earlier that your family is incredibly important to you. I'm curious, navigating through all that you talked about, what happened with the NICU? Yeah, since then, the rocket ride that you've been on, how have you been able to balance and keep your priorities straight? Great, it's.

Matt DeSeno: 18:26

You know what it's I I think about in concepts of fences and walls and also, this idea of of this is probably just like some principle in physics that less flex, more flexible things will always adjust to less flexible things. And so if I've got a uh, a feather versus a brick, feather's gonna flex, the brick is gonna stand still. But then you take the same brick and you go brick versus diamond, the brick's gonna flex, the diamond's gonna stand still and it's just more flexible things will adjust to less flexible things. So for fences and walls, it's determining that for yourself. There are certain things I think about fences. I think about like chain link fences. It's there. I try to stay within that parameter, but sometimes I hop the fence and that's okay, it's like general guidance. I can see the other side of it. There's other things that are walls and it's like that is there's a no-go zone and we each get to carry those personally for ourselves. But I don't think enough people give themselves permission into that of like being inflexible as a strategy to not resent the journey, Because I've heard from a lot of folks they sacrifice the things they wish they didn't sacrifice and it's just from starting out and I'd say like even right now, my day schedule, people would be surprised.

Matt DeSeno: 19:39

My day-to-day, right now I do not work from 7.30 to 1.30. Zero, zero calls zero attention, nada from the primary chunk of the work day. Why do I do that? Because my schedule is oriented in such a way that, like I take my, I take my eldest to preschool every single day. I actually take both my boys, so I take my Ellis preschool and then I hang out with us. We got a four year old and two year old now, Um, and I hang out with two year olds until nap time and so we hang out together. Then we pick him up from preschool he does like a half day and then we come back and I put him down for nap time and then my eldest is kind of, does quiet time and quiet play and that's why I put him here. So I wake up early, do this for an early day for myself, for me, and then mostly, just I mostly have accountability to the team, unsticking them, giving vision, direction, whatever it is.

Matt DeSeno: 20:29

That requires A lot of. It's just like looking at the scoreboard and then telling other people about the scoreboard, like reprioritizing folks based on the scoreboard, and but that's, some folks would say how you could run an eight figure business not working, 730 to 130, Monday through Friday, and like and actually it's like, on Saturday and Sunday, like I don't work at all, and so that seems and some people might be, that seems impossible, but like, no, it's it. It's impossible if you don't have the constraints so much of it is constraints, and so the fences and walls, and then just understanding that you're giving yourself permission to be inflexible. And I've gone through different cycles of this Um, and every time there's an area that I don't want to cross. The cool thing is is I say, deficit creates opportunities. So the things that I'm not willing to do or that I can't do, that's an opportunity for somebody else. And so I've definitely done this, growing a team.

Matt DeSeno: 21:21

But you know to to um, it's not, it's not. I've not sacrificed for myself or for my family. You know, and this is, I've not completely built, I didn't build out in the open and I'm still growing in that kind of vulnerability. But it shared things like, like my take this is weird to say, but like personal income every year over, you know, in the seven figure zone. So it's, it's. I've not had to go like, oh, you built a behemoth and, like you, you know, survive on 20,. You know, $50,000 a year or a hundred thousand dollars a year, which can happen to folks too, where they'll maybe buy back their time too much or not not do it in a way that's profitable or sustainable. I really feel like I have a sustainable, healthy thing that doesn't require me for all the parts and pieces there, and it's been every zone. I just also fundamentally can't accept an either or situation. I always pursue the both end, and that's like the hospital said you can only come back when this is done.

Matt DeSeno: 22:18

I was like no like that's just, that's not going to do it for me Right now. I couldn't get into the NICU, like, to be fair, like there are zones you can't go there, but like I needed to be close to my son, and so I found a way to do that and I was in. I still have like photos I'm in the NICU or in the waiting room outside of the NICU having clients cancel on us or kind of say like hey, sorry, this $10,000, $20,000 invoice, we're not gonna be able to pay it, and that's, you know, it's motivating. You get over yourself, you do the stuff that you've known, that you're supposed to do, and I, you know that's. Maybe the other dynamic too is, when you put in these false constraints, growth is uncomfortable. Fundamentally, most people know the things they need to do to get to the level they want to get to. We just make excuses for ourselves or we're afraid of the discomfort that it probably there, truly there, in moving in that space, because also when you grow to new levels, you're always bad first, and so I've just chosen to be okay with being bad fast, and I give myself permission to be bad fast.

Matt DeSeno: 23:30

Uh, some of this is like I don't know. Some of this. I, I could take my I don't take myself as seriously. Um, I grew up. I've always struggled with my weight. Honestly, this is a weird, weird dynamic there. But like I grew up and I was, I was the heavy, I was a. I was a big kid in elementary school and into high school I kind of stretched out a little bit, and so some of that, I think, sticks with you in the sense of like you had to learn to make fun of yourself, cause that was like a coping mechanism, and so now the idea of looking foolish in front of other folks doesn't phase me as much.

Matt DeSeno: 24:01

I remember I, I, uh, when I was 19, I decided I want to learn how to skateboard. You show up at a skateboard like a skate park, as like a you know, adult. Everyone assumes like you must be good, cause why else are you here? And to be one of like I'm going to fall next to 12 year olds because I want like cause I'm like, well, how else am I going to learn Like I have to be the guy who's attempting a kickflip. But it's just funny. Like some of the things as we, as we get older, we feel the pressure on ourselves. Everyone else around me. They're already good, they've already gotten there. It's not that you don't feel it, but I think I've exercised that muscle of being okay, being uncomfortable and just laughing at yourself and giving yourself permission to be bad. So then it's just like may as well be bad fast.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:52

It's so insightful and, I think, so helpful for the people who are listening, who really struggle with so many of the things you're talking about. You know you have to lead at a different level today than you did five years ago. Your team needs it, your client needs it, your clients need it, your business needs it, and that same thing is going to be true five years from now. What are you doing to level up? How do you intentionally develop the skills that you and your team and your clients are going to need?

Matt DeSeno: 25:22

It is. Learning through action is, I think, what I'd say. I think there's a lot of folks who will learn to learn. That's not a bad thing, I appreciate learning, but where it turns into significant growth is in the actual action side of it, and so there's um, you know, like there's practical elements of like having a clarity of a why this is like the most motivating thing for me. Like on my monitor right now, I have 25 year goals. This is insane 25 years, anything could happen, right this is monstrous goals I got like.

Matt DeSeno: 25:57

One I share all the time is I want to have kind and confident kids. Adults, my boyfriend, we want to raise kind and confident kids who want to spend time with us when they no longer have to. That shapes so much of the day-to-day right. I added a new one in here this year. I was like I want to have a six pack, I want to be a ripped grandpa.

Matt DeSeno: 26:15

I never given myself permission to be elite when it came to physical fitness and I had, like, totally disregarded this. It's weird to say, but like this year, I'm down 35 pounds. I'm the lightest, strongest I've ever been in my life, and it started with understanding, like picking a goal that was 25 years from now. So good Cause, cause I've learned this too with the team your, your dream has to be your dreams, and goals, like your dreams, have to be big enough to fit the dreams of your team. Yes, otherwise they're going to go and find someone else who's got bigger dreams. And so, yes, dreaming big and then and then finding ways to um, actually put it into action. So I hold a just like just daily practices, seek out accountability and when I have an idea, try to reduce the speed, like the space between idea and execution as much as possible, and it just, it cycles that way, so good.

Dr. William Attaway: 27:07

Matt, I know your schedule is tight and I'm so grateful for you sharing so much insight and so much of your time here today. Thank you for being here. I know our folks are going to want to continue to learn from you and stay connected to you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Matt DeSeno: 27:22

Here's it. I think the best way is, if you're growing kind of this space, there's a couple of things we've been able to accomplish. If you find me on Instagram this is where I really do a better job now of documenting the journey it's just at Matt DeCino on Instagram. Find me on Instagram. You can follow me if you want, or just DM me. And here's what I want to set up.

Matt DeSeno: 27:41

If you DM me breaking 100, I've put together probably the most practical ways that I've been able to take those action steps, like those small action steps and then also just practically getting over a hundred clients.

Matt DeSeno: 27:58

So we've done it for ourselves, many other folks before and some of the cool things I learned from watching other folks do it, and so some, like I love some of the biggest launches I've ever seen, or growth, growth curves, like I said, some of the greats in the marketing zone, and so if you're trying to grow, I would prefer to just give folks resources off the bat that will help you make money. All of our stuff, to be clear, is, we're usually in the zone of when you have clients. That's where we step into it. And so, yeah, find me on Instagram, dm me Breaking100, and I'll shoot you over totally free, no opt-in required. I put together a six-hour course of the exact. Some of them are really small, practical things and some of them are a little bit more advanced, but I tried to hold nothing back and I'd love to give that to anybody who's listening and want to want to stay in touch.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:46

And that's so generous. Thank you for that and thanks for being so generous today. So appreciate you, matt. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode today.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:55

As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:29

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored. To help you, just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 30:12

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