How to Scale Digital Agencies for Long-Term Growth With Nick Hoard

Navigating the journey of growth in today’s digital landscape isn’t for the faint of heart, especially when client retention and team culture are at stake. In this episode, I sit down with Nick Hoard, a seasoned digital marketing entrepreneur, to discuss the strategies and insights that led him to build two successful agencies: Nick the Marketer and Patient Care Marketing Pros.

Nick shares how his path to digital success began out of necessity—losing clients to full-service agencies motivated him to master SEO and web design. This episode dives into Nick's evolution as a leader, from dealing with arrogance in his early career to embracing a teachable spirit. He emphasizes the importance of adaptability in a rapidly changing industry, especially with the onset of AI. We also explore the unique feedback systems Nick has implemented, like his weekly emoji-based team check-ins, which foster a culture of transparency and empower his team to take ownership. For leaders seeking ways to scale their businesses while building a positive, values-driven culture, this episode offers practical, actionable insights you won't want to miss.

Connect with Nick Hoard:
 
To learn more from Nick Hoard's wealth of experience in digital marketing and team leadership, connect with him on LinkedIn for insightful discussions or follow Nick the Marketer on TikTok for a glimpse into his agency’s creative energy and strategies!

Books Mentioned:

• The Motive by Patrick Lencioni 

Join the New Catalytic Leadership Community

Check out our new online membership site, with new resources by Dr. William Attaway and his team added weekly: https://checkout.catalyticleadership.net/

Chapters

• 0:01 Building a Digital Agency
• 5:31 Leadership Lessons and Growth
• 11:01 Defining Company Culture
• 17:02 Effective Team Feedback Loops
• 21:47 Empowering Team Accountability
• 28:32 Leading Beyond the Comfort Zone
• 34:02 Recommended Reads for Leaders

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm so excited today to have Nick Horde on the podcast. Nick is a dedicated entrepreneur with over 15 years of experience in advertising and digital marketing. Starting his career in radio ads, he quickly recognized the shift to digital and developed a winning formula for lead generation. He's the founder of two successful agencies Nick the Marketer, a full-service digital marketing agency that helps small businesses grow through strategies like SEO, google Ads, mobile-first website design and social media marketing, and the second is Patient Care Marketing Pros, which focuses on helping urgent care clinics and healthcare practices attract new patients through customized digital strategies. Both agencies are committed to driving growth with innovative, results-driven solutions. Nick and I'm so glad you're here, thanks for being on the show.

Nick Hoard: 0:56

Dr Attaway, thank you so much for having me. It's very quickly become friends with you just over what feels like the summer up to this point, so I appreciate you taking some time and meeting with me on this. This is good.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:08

This has been great. We just actually finished recording an episode for your podcast that I'm excited about. I love that conversation. I know this one's going to be fantastic.

Nick Hoard: 1:17

I think the only thing from me so far is I like to have a good time, so you don't have to worry about that.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:22

And that's what this is going to be.

Intro/Outro: 1:24

Tom, so you don't have to worry about that, and that's what this is going to be. Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:42

I'd love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started? Failure.

Nick Hoard: 1:57

You know, I went to school at the University of Tennessee and I went there because my parents wouldn't let me join the military. I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me join the military. I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me join the military. And my other option? I was just told I was going to college and, fun fact, I studied studio music and jazz performance. So when I say failure, what I mean is no direction and had to feed my family. You know, I, it it's a dead language. I love jazz, don't get me wrong, but it's a dead language. I had no business being in college. I didn't know what I wanted to do and that's why I wanted to go in the military. Um, but I, you know, I. I got out of school and I had to get to work and and nobody wants to hire a jazz performer I didn't want to be a teacher. So you know, um, which is funny because I teach a lot now. But um, life isn't without a sense of humor, is it?

Intro/Outro: 2:52

uh, so anyway, I I want to get.

Nick Hoard: 2:55

I met my wife at the university of tennessee, so that's a win. I had a blast there. But uh, very quickly realized that she wanted to like eat food and sleep in a bed and have covering, uh. So a job was required, not music and aspirations, right. So I had to get I wound up. Wound up, uh, in a dead-end job. It was a great company eddie bauer is fine, but it's retail. That's not where you go to like live your glory days. And, um, I got picked up at costco. So I went over to Costco retail and they gave me my first shot in marketing. I started selling TVs there. I was just selling TVs, but they had this outdoor marketing thing where you would go out businesses, talk to them, market Costco to them, like the perks of doing that.

Nick Hoard: 3:39

And I'll really never forget the biggest leadership catalyst in that, from a story perspective, is just my boss saying you're so arrogant, so arrogant, oh, wow, okay, I mean, that's probably true. I had a little bit of bounce in my step and I was in my 20s and you know, some attitude and with no direction, yeah, you're going to come across a way, right. And I was like, okay, I thought that was confidence. And so I asked her and I was like, okay, I thought that was confidence. And so I asked her. I was like, what's the difference, you know, between arrogance and confidence? So she goes arrogant, people talk a lot. Confident, people do a lot. I was like, oh, shut up and get to work then. Okay, so learn that very quickly. And I actually you know we talked on the other podcast about, like when people lay that 10% extra on you, you have a couple of things you can put it into action or you can get butt hurt and walk away, right. So I put it into action and got picked up at Coca-Cola and wound up getting a job there in the marketing department. And from there I got this beautiful letter that I still keep to this day and I'm not mad about it. So like it's just a thing, like for there, for your audience, so that they don't get mad at me when I say this they gave me a letter that said the future of coca-cola is for women and people of color, and I did not match either either of those descriptions. So that caused me, in a what I would consider a pretty successful career at Coca-Cola, to go. I've peaked here, I'm not looking for anymore.

Nick Hoard: 5:10

And so I got into radio talk radio and Christian radio, specifically here in Birmingham, alabama, and I got really good at advertising and writing ads and selling ads and and helping businesses grow. And that was, oh, maybe 2012, 2013, something like that that's kind of at the cusp where really internet marketing was starting to take off. Now it was already there, but I'm talking about taking off Right, and so everything that I would sell on radio, they would say, hey, listen, do you also build a website or can you help me get found on Google? And that kind of stuff. And I couldn't, to be honest with you, I didn't know how to do it.

Nick Hoard: 5:48

And there were these agencies that that did everything. You've run into those before. I would get them, I would refer them over to them and they would already be my client and then they would just steal my client. And after about seven times of that happening, I said I'm going to learn how to do SEO and I'm going to learn how to build websites and I'm going to learn how to do these things. And it wasn't even to help my customers, it was just simply to not lose them anymore. And that, sir, is how Nick the Marketer was born. That's how I got here, man. That's how it happened.

Dr. William Attaway: 6:21

You know, in that I see so much of a teachable spirit, and it was just a contrast to what the feedback that you got earlier in your career right, so arrogant, but the teachable spirit that you exhibited there is one that a whole lot of people don't have, and what I mean by that is you could have said, well, no, I know how to do radio, I know how to do traditional marketing and I'm not going to learn all that new stuff, I'm just going to stay with what I know. That's what a lot of people have done. Fewer and fewer of them are still around, but that's what a lot of people have done. You said wait a minute. In order to succeed, I've got to adapt, and then you chose to take action.

Nick Hoard: 7:07

Now I find myself learning to adapt again with AI and everything else that's coming in here and uh, but you're right, I mean adaptability is huge and uh, teachability is huge and I wish I could say I was perfect at it. I'm not.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:20

Uh, there's all none of us are right.

Nick Hoard: 7:22

I don't get it, or I don't want it, or, you know, I don't care what you have to say. Typically, that's what my wife would tell me. You're like I don't think you understand what I'm trying to tell you. You need to be more romantic, you know? Um, that's right. I'm like what are you talking about? We just went to McDonald, but we have to find those opportunities where, okay, like this is one of those moments where I can feel something is different and something is changing and I have an opportunity to grow and change with it, or I have. Honestly, there's the alternative is to stagnate and fall backwards like or die. Right, and that's exactly what I think you're talking about. Is that teachable spirit? Like I said, I'm not always as good as I'd like to be, and I will say this, dr Attaway, the closer you are to somebody, the harder it can be to receive their constructive feedback.

Nick Hoard: 8:30

Yes, 100% true. Feedback is a gift, but sometimes it's one we reject from those closest to us. I heard a saying one time that I absolutely believe but also need to overcome, sometimes because of what you just said. It's a gift right. Unasked for advice, is criticism right? That's what I've been told.

Dr. William Attaway: 8:45

And I actually believe that.

Nick Hoard: 8:46

But also, at the same time, if somebody cares about you and you know that we were talking about this earlier those positive deposits that people have made in your life open the pathway for you to be able to make that constructive criticism and therefore, asked for or not it is constructive, like you should receive that.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:11

I think. I think it's a posture, it's a choice that you make. Am I going to be the most teachable person today, in every environment I'm in, including with those closest to me, right? Or am I not? Am I going to know more than the people around me? You get to choose.

Nick Hoard: 9:24

You're right. A lot of it you know. You check the fruit. There's this positive deposits that the people that care about you make you know as as quickly as you and I have become friends at the same time. I don't know you deeply, but I also can go check your website. I can see the 30 years experience. I can see that you've been married for 26 years with two daughters. I can see the fruit on experience. I can see that you've been married for 26 years with two daughters.

Nick Hoard: 9:48

I can see the fruit on your tree and therefore, even though we haven't built a long, lasting, deep relationship, there's something that I can check that says probably need to listen to what he has to say to me. There's some of that there. It's the overweight dude that's giving you fitness advice that you probably should throw up a wall. You know what I mean. That's true. It's the mother-in-law on her fifth marriage that says maybe you should take my marriage advice, that you probably need to gut check that before you receive that from them, right? So there's that piece of it too. They could be super close to me, but I don't want what you've got. Therefore, I'm not going to listen to what you have to say.

Dr. William Attaway: 10:29

And so there's that there's a whole spectrum of that feedback, so true. So, thinking about the fruit and I love that metaphor, thinking about the fruit like when you're looking at your team right, You're looking at the people that you lead day in and day out. What are some things that you encourage as their leader? What kind of fruit are you looking for? What do you reward when you see it?

Nick Hoard: 10:53

Well, I'm very easy to understand on what I'm going to reward. Okay, and it's because I've defined the mission, vision and values of the company very, very well. So I'll just throw them real quick. Culture drops everything. Win-win values of the company very, very well. So I'll just throw them real quick. Culture drops everything. Win-win partnerships, exceptional client experience and embrace ownership.

Nick Hoard: 11:10

So I see any one of those four behaviors being played out internally, externally, with clients, whatever. Those are very quick for me to be able to reward a behavior and not just a personality type. You just got to be really careful with that, in my opinion, Right? Yeah, so I'm looking for those kinds of behaviors that I can that I can publicly praise, but I honestly I want to bring out in the one-on-one sessions when I'm having, when I'm having development time with my team we do monthly one-to-ones Um. I want to find out their passions and their purposes, which probably aren't to run a paid ads campaign for our client for the rest of their life. Um, how am I going to speak into you in such a way that when you leave here, um, that that deposit is going to go with you, and so I think about that a lot. I really do. I wish there was a formula for it. There's not. I guess caring enough about other people would probably be the formula, right?

Dr. William Attaway: 12:08

So let's dive into that, because that's something that I've been thinking about lately. Caring for your team what does that mean to you? What does that look like in the agencies that you run, the teams that you lead? What does it look like for Nick to care for his team?

Nick Hoard: 12:41

interpreted Bible verse because you know, dr Attaway, I want to treat you in the language that I understand, which may not be the language that you receive them. Right, yeah, and so that's the real challenge in leadership is finding out how they want to be treated and treat them that way, not just. I'll give you an example. I personally feel like gifts giving gifts is probably my least. I have to work harder at that. I don't want to speak negative on myself, but I have to work harder on that language of appreciation with my team than any other gift. It's so easy. My love language, or my appreciation language, is physical touch, which is a real challenge with women in the workplace. I can't do that right, we'll have fist bump parties. I'll knuckle up people, I'll high five, but I'm never putting my hand on their shoulder. I never will go in for a hug, those kinds of things, but I always want to. You know what I mean, yeah, but I also know like they're not going to receive that the way I'm trying to give it. You know what I mean, especially in the world that we live in. So, to go back to your question how do you care for people? Well, you do it the way they need to be cared for. And then a real challenge is to put yourself in their shoes, and that can be okay.

Nick Hoard: 13:58

I had a I'm not going to say his name. I have an employee in Atlanta and he I don't know if you realize this, maybe you do. It was in the news, but there was a mass shooting at a school there. Uh, four students died, a teacher died and, uh, several people were injured. Well, his sister was one of the people that were injured in that classroom. Oh, my goodness, goodness, um. So when he disappeared in the middle of a meeting, on on camera, um, my, I will tell you my gut reaction is like god, what? How are you gonna do that right in the middle of a of a meeting? Like we all saw you get up and walk away, but my first interaction with him was man. That was unusual for you. Um, what's up, are you okay?

Dr. William Attaway: 14:41

Awesome Right, awesome Lead with a question. I love that.

Nick Hoard: 14:46

Yeah, so uh, but I will tell you what you feel and how you act. Don't always align. Most of the time they don't, yeah.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:53

Yeah, that's so true. You know, I love the way you describe talking about. You know caring for your team the way they want to be cared for, and the only way I know to get there is to listen. I think listening is one of the most underutilized tools in a leader's tool bag. What does that look like for you? Are you doing one-on-ones with your team? How do you get into a situation where you can listen and actually hear what it is that's going on, what matters to them and how you can best care for them?

Nick Hoard: 17:01

Well, honestly, I've built a lot into this. It's funny that you asked this question. I wasn't expecting that one. Well, one, yes, listening. But we have a feedback loop, like a genuine feedback loop. Every Friday, an email goes out to our team. That, michael, I wish I could tell you.

Nick Hoard: 17:16

It was my idea. Michael, who you've met, he's our VP of operations. He put this together and it is our weekly report. It goes directly to them individually and it's built in emojis. That's like my whole.

Nick Hoard: 17:31

That's how I think I will see an emoji before. I'll see like I'll get more out of your emoji than I will If you wrote a sentence right, so so it's. It's literally how was your week? And it's a set of emojis Like you pick the emoji from, from frowny face to indifference, all the way to fired up, like happy, to headache explosion, like all the emotions you can think of, not all of them, okay, a set of emojis that makes sense for the question, right?

Nick Hoard: 17:59

Um, what was your high? Give me a, give me an opportunity. What was your low? Give me what's going on. Um, and then my favorite question that we recently added and I've gotten more feedback from this than any question is what? One thing, if it improved or changed, would make all the difference in your world. Oh, so good, I love that question. I mean I've gotten more positive interactions from that question. I mean somebody let me know, like, if you don't hire somebody in this area soon, we're in trouble, right? Well, I didn't know that. I've never asked it that way and they didn't know to tell me that way, but that was the thing that would make all the difference, because she's overwhelmed and I didn't know it.

Nick Hoard: 18:37

Um, but it's, it's just having a good, that's weekly and then on one to one. And they know I read it, because if I, if I see it, I'll hit a reply. It'll just go to them and I'll say, hey, listen, I just want you know I don't have an answer for you right now, but I see this Right, so, so, like I'm letting them know hey, I got you, like and I will, I'm not just saying that like we got to plan an action based on their feedback loop. Right, and sometimes it's just like God tells me this all the time Just no, you know the answer is no Right. No, you know the answer is no Right. So sometimes that's it too Right. So you know those feedback loops are critical and and I've done a lot of reading I'm open to coaching like Josh Nelson.

Nick Hoard: 19:22

You know you're now on that leadership Right and when Josh tells me to do something, I don't come back to him until I've done the thing he's told me to do. Yeah, so there's a piece of that as well. And when he says, hey, nick, you might be seeing some turnover because you don't actually fully understand what your team's going through, then you fix that. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. William Attaway: 19:44

That's so good a lot lately about how, when a team member feels known and seen and heard by their team leader, it will increase retention and, conversely, if they don't feel known or seen or heard, your retention is going to go through the roof. And you just illustrated that in such a powerful way. I love the emoji feedback because that's such a powerful way to leverage a tool that most of the listeners probably have not leveraged.

Nick Hoard: 20:16

Right.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:17

How long does it take somebody to fill out this survey at the end of the week?

Nick Hoard: 20:21

Like probably max two minutes, because you know what. Just remind me and I'll send you over a link directly to the survey that goes out. I would love to see that so that you can see it. But yeah, maybe two minutes and just really good. We've been doing this for two years now and we have never once had to ask anybody to fill it out, nor have they missed it.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:45

Okay, I hope everybody listening is writing this down, because how often do we send out a request for feedback, a survey and crickets and you might get 20%, 25%, 30% response rate. You've never had to go chase one. You've never had that. That's remarkable.

Nick Hoard: 21:12

How many times have you sent out a survey and you got it and you didn't respond? So that, I think, is the biggest differentiator. Receiving feedback and doing nothing with it is probably more painful or more detrimental to your feedback loop than even getting it in the first place. I mean, if you get no information and you're not going to do anything with it anyway, you've all you've done is send out an email. Um, so I think that's the bigger, I think that's the bigger win on that is just simply like hey, I see you. Or, um, you're right.

Nick Hoard: 21:46

God, that's such a good phrase for people to hear. Hey, you're right, yes, yes, they're like oh really, and it's the stupidest thing. Sometimes it's stupid in a good way, right, I don't mean like you're an idiot. I mean like hey, we need new conference chairs. They're super uncomfortable. I was like, okay, they're super expensive and that's not in the budget right now. And then Izzy on our team, she goes well, I found these on Facebook marketplace. They're about $400 each. I bet we could get all of them, for all 10 of these chairs, for less than $400. And she negotiated the price for all 10 of these chairs for $360. She did that because I responded to her in her feedback loop and she was proactive. That's the embrace ownership side. By the way, yes, yeah it goes.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:33

It's like I love that I can't do that.

Nick Hoard: 22:35

But if you want to bring something to me, I'm all right and we. They're in the, they're in the office now. We got them now, picked them up last week so good you.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:45

You delegate not just responsibility to your team, but you also empower them with authority, right? You want them to understand that they, they own stuff, this is theirs and and their decision is the right one, and you're going to be behind them, and I love that mindset and that attitude. Have you always been like that or is this something you've grown into?

Nick Hoard: 23:07

Um, man, I've had more teeth kicked out of my face, doing stupid things and not listening and being stubborn and, you know, arrogant, and we talked about that at the beginning of the episode. Um, the the only thing that I think that I have going for me is I'm willing to listen and change. No, I haven't always been. None of the rest of it has been that way, but all of it has grown through pain. All of it has grown through loss of employees or loss of relationships. Most of it's just come from pain. Every SOP that anybody's ever written has come out of some mistake, right, Wow?

Dr. William Attaway: 23:50

I think sometimes we see failure as the enemy, and I don't think that is true. I think failure is really the price of success if you're teachable, if you learn from it, and that's exactly what I'm hearing from you today.

Nick Hoard: 24:07

There's a really good book that I read called Go For no. Have you ever heard of it? I have heard of it, but I haven't read it.

Nick Hoard: 24:13

Well, I mean, it's a retail, like I said, eddie Bauer, right. So I read it for a year, but I, but I learned what, like I can. If you can pull one good principle out of a book, the book is worth it, right, like. But if you, if you think I don't know how people always consume your podcast, but if it's video, so if this is failure and this is success and here I am right in the middle of it, where my face is I'm either going toward failure or toward success. That's how most people think the thing is. To shift it right, you have to go through the failure to the success. There's just no escaping it. There's just no escaping it. There's just no escaping it. You're going to fail and fail faster, fail bigger and learn from it is the win, that's the real win.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:59

Yes, yes, that's how you go farther and that's how you get there faster, right, right For sure. So, nick, let me ask you you are leading at a different level today than you did five years ago.

Nick Hoard: 25:12

Yes, correct.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:14

And five years from now, your team, your business, your clients are going to need you to lead at a higher level still. How do you stay on top of your game and level up with the leadership skills that your team and your business and your clients are going to need you to have?

Nick Hoard: 25:32

That's a funny question. I want to say it was two weeks ago. Michael and I have a desk like we have this T-shaped desk, so we sit right next to each other and I looked at him and we've been stagnant as a business. We're finally poking through that. I'm grateful for that but we've been stagnant around seven figures now for about 18 months, right. And when you get into a place like that, I'm going to answer your question, I promise.

Nick Hoard: 25:58

When you get to a place like that, you start looking at what's the problem. And I finally looked over at Michael and I'm like I'm the lid, I'm the lid, I'm the problem, it's me. What is it? Taylor Swift? Hi, I'm the problem, it's me.

Nick Hoard: 26:13

So sometimes, once you realize that, then you can do something about it. And I started. I got a coaching session with Josh. I went to a leadership summit that was way out of my comfort zone and price range. So great, I'm glad I went, met you there, right, just something that was kind of impromptu. So I did that and I just said hey, listen, I'm not the smartest person in the room, that's not what I'm getting at, but I am at the top of it in this particular room and I was like I got to get into some different rooms and read some different books and came across one book that you'll I'm sure you'll want to talk about later, but that that book's been gut punching me and I've been just trying to increase my lid. Trying to increase my lid, um, cause, yeah, we, we, we, we hit the wall and I'm the wall. Uh, so, in the multitude of of counsel, there's wisdom. The Bible says, um.

Nick Hoard: 27:09

So I started seeking out people that were further along than me, one of them being my dad, who's retired and out of the game, and just saying all right, dad, tell me something about me. I don't know. All right, josh, tell me something about me. I don't know. There's I've got blind spots and I don't know what they are, and I thought I had figured them out, but I haven't.

Dr. William Attaway: 27:31

All right book tell me something about me.

Nick Hoard: 27:32

I don't know. You know what I mean. Hold the mirror up right. And I've been receiving a lot lately from counsel and from books, and again it's that practical application that matters. Knowledge is not power. Applied knowledge is power, and that's the radical difference there. So, yeah, that's how I'm working on being prepared for the next five years, and what's funny about that is it looks a lot like five years ago what I had to do to prepare for where we are today. It's not like it's a big secret, it's just you stop doing the things that work. Big secret, it's just you stop doing the things that work.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:11

It does not matter the field does it? We see it across so many different fields and industries and discipline Right, and you know that it's not just going to fix itself, it's not just going to change. You're not going to wake up one day and say, oh wow, I'm the leader my team needs. I don't know how that happened, but here I am. No, you have to intentionally prepare, you have to intentionally choose, and I love that you're doing that, man. Yes, absolutely so. Let's talk about that book. One thing I ask all of the guests is is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey, one that has really challenged you, or one that you would recommend that every leader listening? Hey, if you haven't read this, this is worth putting on your to-read list.

Nick Hoard: 28:53

Well, I'm a podcast consumer and I was listening to Alex Hermosi's podcast, the Game, and he was talking about this book called the Motive, by Pat Lencioni, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it Very much. I was not. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with it I was not Very much. I was not and I suffered of the five good bullet points that he puts out there. There were two of them that I was suffering from, that were and are still, but I'm working through them that were holding me back and, without going into too much detail of the book, essentially it's why are you wanting to be a leader in the first place? And should you even be leading, which, I think, if I recall correctly, the main character of that book decides no, I'm not the right person and I need to step out of leadership and you need to step in Right. But the motive behind it if you're suffering in some area of your business, what is your motive behind that? Anyway? Two things for me specifically that I'm growing through right now that I got challenged on. One of them is micromanaging. Micromanaging doesn't exist according to this book. It's just managing right and, if you don't like to micromanage people or be micromanaged. What he is saying is you don't like accountability. And he's not wrong. I don't like accountability. If I'm being honest, I don't, but I've never heard it that way. Like, why don't I want to micromanage people? And I tell people all the time like I'm not going to micromanage you if you can't do the job, yeah well, micromanagement isn't micromanagement, it's just managing. Like there's an expectation that you hired them for. That needs to be measured. Well, I've never thought about that that way. And a lot of business owners, man, if I'm being honest, we're in this position because we got like unhealthily micromanaged in other roles. So you know, I need you to send a daily report of everything that you did, including the times that you breathed, right. That's what you're used to when you think of it that way. Well, what it was is did you just do your job and what was the outcomes? What were the inputs, what were the outcomes and what needs to improve, and congratulations on the things you did.

Nick Hoard: 31:04

Well, you know, it's bad ego really is what it is. It's just bad ego, right, and I'm speaking from a place of not healed yet Like literally, this is this is still gut punching me right now, and the other one. This is more of an ashamed thing, but I guess you got to say the thing out loud, right? Is? I really struggle giving feedback, and what I mean by that is I'm good at getting it and I'm good at responding to it, but if it's negative I don't want to deal with it.

Nick Hoard: 31:41

And so what he talks about, what Pat talks about in this book, is if you're delegating the hard feedback, then what's your motivation? Because it's not to do the hard thing and to be a leader. You're in it for the money, and I had to sit back and go. Maybe I was just in it for the money, I don't know. I haven't come to that full conclusion yet, but anyway, the Motive, pat Lincione, that's a book that's just, you know, smacking me around left and right in the best possible way, and I don't think a book has ever challenged me more than that one, seriously, and it's so fresh and I've read so many books, but that's just one that's challenged me personally the most.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:19

I love that and I so appreciate your transparency there. When I first read that and heard Pat talk about the concepts in that book, I'm with you. It hits you like a gut punch and you really have to do that deep work internally and begin to ask the right questions. Right, why am I doing this? What is my motivation? And I think that's work that every leader could benefit from. Thank you so much for sharing that, nick. My pleasure, my pleasure.

Nick Hoard: 32:48

I love it. The other one just a real quick plug, cause I read it every single month. Uh, skill with people. By Les Giblin, I read it every single month. That's. It's a nothing read. You don't get bloviated with all kinds of stories. It's here's a concept, here's three bullet points, next chapter, and I'm going, I can consume that and I do. I read it every, every single month just to keep me fresh and just to remember that the sweetest sound to anybody is their own name and the first person they look at in any picture is their own face. So it just helps me understand and put perspective, to put people first.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:17

You know, when you first told me about that book about a month ago, I ordered it and I've got it over here in my to read stack because I have not read it. And you said every month and I was like, wow, this must be amazing. So I'm really looking forward to that.

Nick Hoard: 33:31

Well, it is amazing, and it's so quick to forget.

Nick Hoard: 33:35

As good as it is like there's some books that just you read it and it stays on the shelf and you're like I read that and I remember the one thing that I took away from it. Right, we were just talking about that one book that I read years ago, that I took that one failure piece from. But every time I go back to this book it is a good reminder of. I had that one conversation the other day and I didn't ask him a single thing about themselves or the whole time I was thinking about how can I get to my question or whatever it is, and it's just a reminder, because so quickly our human psyche steps in and says you're the center of your universe and you're really not.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:13

Wow. So good, nick, I could talk to you for another hour and I'm so grateful for your generosity in sharing so freely and transparently from your journey so far. And I know the best is yet to come for you Because, with a posture like you have and the humility that you have, the teachable spirit, and I know the best is yet to come.

Nick Hoard: 34:38

Man, I will receive that, thank you. Absolutely I mean it Appreciate that? Yeah, thank you.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:45

I know our listeners are going to want to learn more about you, what you do, and stay connected to you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Nick Hoard: 34:53

I am building out my platform on LinkedIn. I've been hesitant to go there, but if you go to Nick Hoard on LinkedIn N-I-C-K-H-O-A-R-D and find me on LinkedIn and connect with me there, most likely I'll invite you to some of the groups that I'm and just that's where you're going to get most of my voice. And if you want to go, have a really good time. Follow Nick the Marketer on TikTok, because that's where our real personality comes out. You want to have fun, go there. If you want to talk to me, go to LinkedIn and we'll chat, we'll connect.

Dr. William Attaway: 35:22

I'd love to we will have those links appreciate the time today.

Dr. William Attaway: 35:28

Yeah, appreciate you having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:06

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. I'm currently learning and thinking about and if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 36:49

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.