How to Build a Law Firm Marketing Strategy With Josh Konigsberg

Many attorneys rely on fragmented tactics to manage their marketing efforts, but as Josh Konigsberg reveals in this episode, a successful law firm marketing strategy requires a comprehensive, strategic approach. I sat down with Josh, a seasoned digital marketing expert, to dive into the world of law firm marketing and lead generation. We explore the critical difference between tactics and strategy, highlighting why only a cohesive marketing system can create a consistent flow of qualified leads.

Josh shares valuable insights into client intake processes, emphasizing the need for a 24/7 response and a systematic approach to ensure every lead is managed professionally. With decades of experience, Josh also discusses the power of consumer psychology and the importance of reputation management. Join us to uncover why a solid marketing strategy can not only drive business growth but set your firm apart as a trusted name.


Connect with Josh Konigsberg:

Connect with Josh Konigsberg at Law Firm Marketing Pros to learn how a strategic marketing approach can transform your law firm’s visibility and lead generation. His insights into creating a cohesive marketing system are invaluable for any attorney ready to grow their practice.


Books Mentioned:

• The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes 

Join the New Catalytic Leadership Community

Check out our new online membership site, with new resources by Dr. William Attaway and his team added weekly: https://checkout.catalyticleadership.net/

Chapters

• 0:01 From Humble Beginnings to Marketing Expertise
• 5:19 Strategy vs. Tactics in Law Firm Marketing
• 8:17 Common Pitfalls in DIY Marketing for Attorneys
• 12:43 Streamlining Client Intake for Better Conversion
• 19:16 Building a Consistent Marketing System
• 26:41 Leveraging Consumer Psychology for Success
• 31:41 Staying Ahead in a Competitive Market

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm honored today to have Josh Konigsberg on the podcast. Josh is a digital marketing and Google local search expert with 27 plus years of digital and technology marketing experience, including co-founder of the first financial search engine on the web in 1996. He specializes in helping lawyers and law firms significantly increase their qualified lead generation and thus enhance revenue by implementing a strategic approach to online marketing that works. He's a partner and co-founder of Law Firm Marketing Pros, who won the prestigious Agency of the Year Award for the Digital Marketing Mastermind Group, Seven-Figure Agency. He also mentors approximately 300 agencies in that group. He's the author of Law Firm Digital Marketing Made Easy the only book you'll ever need to become a best-known attorney. He's an enlightening public speaker and host of the Behind the Bench podcast for lawyers. Josh, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Josh Konigsberg: 1:07

William, thanks so much for having me Super excited about being here today.

Intro/Outro: 1:12

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Josh Konigsberg: 1:28

I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners.

Josh Konigsberg: 1:33

Josh particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started? So it's interesting. I come from very humble beginnings.

Josh Konigsberg: 2:02

My mother raised four children by herself on a schoolteacher salary, with really not much help from my father. I was the youngest of four and, as she liked to say, she would tell me it's the pecking order Right. So everything kind of falls down the hill and that's what's with me. So I grew up in the Philadelphia metro market. If you know anything about markets, that's known to be a pretty rough town. The old veteran stadium was the first stadium to actually have a jail in the stadium. That's how rough of a town it is, Yikes, yeah. So they would arraign you right there on the spot. Oh goodness, it's just a rough town. So between it being a rough town as well as growing up with older siblings, you develop a thick skin and you're always trying to prove yourself Right, prove yourself.

Josh Konigsberg: 2:48

What happened over time, I think, with me is A not having really any money. Growing up living on hand-me-downs from my older siblings, I think that I always had something to prove, and that something to prove manifested into entrepreneurship, which then further manifested into leadership as I grew and mature in business and certain things happened while I was in college. Really to help that. It's funny, not only now that I think about it. Not only was I the youngest of four, but way back when they didn't have honors programs like they do today, right, yeah, so my daughter was part of the international baccalaureate program, which is the next level up above honors. They didn't have any of that. So when I was in elementary school, they just moved me up a grade. You know, I was bored in class after like the first week and they you know what they gave me a test and they next thing you know I'm with all older children, so I went all the same experience.

Josh Konigsberg: 3:46

Yeah, so you know, you're generally physically a little bit smaller, right and and certainly younger and and and and. So that also, I think, led to having something to prove, especially once I got out of high school and went to college where, through my college maturation process, you know, I was invited to things like I was a new student orientation leader, I was an RA, I was captain of the hockey team and so on and so forth. So yeah, so that's part of the journey.

Josh Konigsberg: 4:18

You know every leader that I've talked to. Their journeys are so different, but there are threads that run through. Talk to their journeys are so different, but there are threads that run through, and I think with yours what I hear is that this was not just a predictable pattern and journey that you could have seen from the time you were young of where your life would go right. This has been a little unexpected in some ways, right, I mean in those days.

Josh Konigsberg: 4:44

You know, I don't necessarily. I never those days, those days, you know, I, I, I don't necessarily. I never really pondered it that way. I haven't, you know, I haven't really thought about it. So you know, another interesting part of the journey, and I've heard certain people, public speakers, say this you show me the kid that was the paper boy, I'm going to show you the one who's who's going to be a successful entrepreneur, right? So for me it wasn't a paper boy. I live, we lived right next door to horse stables in the suburbs when we moved out of the city. We live, and so you know, at, at, you know, 10 years old, 11 years old, I was a stable boy. So I can make some money at that, that young of an age and and cause there was no money to go around with it on the school teacher salary, right. So if I wanted things for myself, I had to work for them.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:31

It's remarkable, and that hard work ethic has continued to take you to where you are today. You're known as a digital marketing expert for attorneys. You talk about a lot of different things in that expert space, but one of those is about the difference between digital marketing tactics versus digital marketing strategy. What is that distinction? What do you mean?

Josh Konigsberg: 5:57

by that Great point. I use this as a competitive differentiator when I'm talking to potential clients for law firm marketing pros, Most digital marketing agencies, especially outside of seven-figure agency. They take a tactical approach to marketing and what.

Josh Konigsberg: 6:17

I mean by tactical is the tactic is you need better social media, or you need better SEO, or you need PPC. And in my opinion and I've only been doing this for 14 years my opinion is that it should be a strategic approach. And the strategy should be this you want to create an online omnipresence and if you're a personal injury firm and or a criminal defense firm, most often they will have an offline marketing presence. So you need the synergy with that. So you want an omnipresence so that, everywhere your potential customer looks, they see you, they find you and see you. But then, when they find you and see you, you need to be in a category of one, and it's my job as a marketer to help put you in a category of one. And it's my job as a marketer to help put you in a category of one.

Josh Konigsberg: 7:09

And what I mean by a category of one is this so, on almost every single business transaction, and you remember, at every moment of every day, all of us are in some stage of the buying cycle for something right. So the four choices that we have as a consumer is I can do business with you, I can do business with your competitor, I can do it myself and in law that's called pro se, which is a yuck right or I can do nothing at all and stay in a bad marriage, right. So, given those four choices, as a consumer I want the decision to be crystal clear that they have to choose to do business with you and any other decision they make is a mistake.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:55

Yeah, you talk about doing it on your own as one of those four choices, right? And I think there's a lot of people particularly early in their journey, maybe they're an early stage firm. Maybe there's a lot of people particularly early in their journey, maybe they're, you know, an early stage firm. Maybe there's a solo practitioner. They're like I don't really have the resources to invest in that and do all the other things I want to do. I'll just figure it out on my own. I'll figure out how to build the plane while I'm flying it. When you hear somebody say that or express that, what's your response?

Josh Konigsberg: 8:27

So we have a pre-qualification process so that for me to even get in front of an attorney today they have to go through this pre-qualification, or we can call it a disqualification process, so we disqualify them. So I have sales reps in a team that really manage that. So if you're a solo and you're doing less than, let's say, a half a million dollars a year in revenue and that's fee income unless you're really aggressive, growth-minded, it's probably not a right fit and I'll make a referral out to another member agency member of seven figure agency. That is in the law niche. If you think you can do it on your own, then I invite you to try. Let's ask a couple of very, very quick questions. I mean, and I'll say this to an attorney Can you get a file from another family law firm or another personal injury law firm and look at the file and say whoever did this does not practice this type of law and they don't know what they're doing?

Intro/Outro: 9:33

Okay.

Josh Konigsberg: 9:34

The most common, by the way way, probably is estate planning. Yeah, because, oh, I can just do research online and go to um, chat, gpt and blah blah. Until until, guess what? Until these time to settle a state. Now you're in a state litigation and so if you thought pre-planning was expensive, go through some estate litigation, right? So the Google algorithm is changing. We know they're tweaking it three, four, five, six times a day, sometimes more. We know that the core algorithmic updates used to be one or two a year, now it's as many as 10 or 12. So that's from an SEO, ppc. If you want to do paid ads on your own, I wish you luck with that. Okay, because what happens is if you're going to go through the training that Google provides and we've actually hired a couple of people away from Google and we had to retrain them because basically they train people how to waste money on Google, so Google can make more money.

Josh Konigsberg: 10:29

Of all of the things that you can do on your own own, most likely they will choose social media, and social media is the organic. Social media is the least converting of all types of digital marketing, right? So, um, in some cases, I'll see what we have. We'll do our social media. You know my, my, my, my sister's husband's niece just graduated from college and they're going to do it for us. Right, so, um, right so um.

Josh Konigsberg: 10:58

And then you'll see newsletters. You know electronic newsletters and what happened? What I see there most often is um, they do a couple and then they get busy and they stop, so there's a lack of consistency and they don't have any real mechanism to build their database. So they don't have any real mechanism to build their database. So, basically, right so it's like your social. They don't realize when, with organic social media, when they put a post up is one to 2% of your 100 followers are going to see it and they already know who you are. Right, so, so, so it becomes a consultative and educational process for me when I run into someone like that.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:37

And so yeah.

Josh Konigsberg: 11:37

I love that I want to add to one other thing about the strategy that's really, really important. So, again, most often what I see is so we have this strategy, we want to put them in a category of one, but what's lacking is this is there's not a real structured, cohesive marketing system that they're using, or most of my competitors don't know or haven't thought of so they don't have a marketing system, and without a marketing system, you can't get a consistent flow of qualified leads that are easily convertible to clients week over week, month over month and year over year, and that's one of the other problems that I see.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:14

You really illustrate the power of a professional, somebody who's bringing their expertise to bear and working with attorneys. You would think they would understand this on an intuitive level because they would say well, I went to school a very long time, I'm educated and experienced and I bring that expertise to bear for you, to help you with your problem. And yet it's very difficult to see the whole picture when you're in the frame. And so often I would imagine they, like every other business owner that I talk to, gets into a point where they can't see what they can't see.

Josh Konigsberg: 12:48

Well, it's not only that, William, and that's a really good point, but what I say to attorneys is I'll ask them well, how many hours did you spend in law school studying marketing? Zero, right, right. So you know. Here I am a lifelong entrepreneur degree in communications, been marketing since I graduated college and doing sales before, even before that, while I was in college. So so so, and then I've got a team around me of rockstar professionals. I think our senior management team has over a hundred years of digital marketing experience.

Josh Konigsberg: 13:24

Wow, yeah, and so they all bring different talents and expertise to the table. What I like about that, by the way, is when I get in these zoom meetings with the team. I'm the dumbest guy in the room. That means you've hired well, that's right or selected good partners, etc.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:43

So that's it, that's it. I want to be the dumbest guy in the room right With the people that I'm associating with, because that means I have opportunity for growth here, I can learn, and that means I put together a team that's going to accomplish far more than I ever could on my own.

Josh Konigsberg: 14:00

And that's exactly how business owners and lawyers need to look at their marketing.

Intro/Outro: 14:05

Yes.

Josh Konigsberg: 14:06

Right. So we took over an account about a year ago that one of the partners and he was really smart, but he was doing it all. Not only was he managing all his cases, but he was trying to do their SEO. He was doing their social media. They were not doing any paid ads. He was trying to figure out local service ads, trying to put together a newsletter. I'm like you're going to burn out. I mean, yeah, you know what You've done. A pretty good job considering what you're doing. But you got to make a decision. Do you want to be a lawyer or do you want to be a marketer?

Dr. William Attaway: 14:39

There's a sticky note that I keep on my left monitor. I've had it there for years and it's a question that I need to see every day. And the question is is this the absolute best use of my time right now? I need to see that because that helps me and prompts me to. If the answer to that question is no, then what I'm doing needs to actually be handed off to somebody else. That's right.

Josh Konigsberg: 15:02

That's right. Yeah, and as we grew and began to scale, the first thing that I did was I brought in an administrator to handle all of the billing and invoicing and credit card processing and dealing with the bookkeepers and the accountants. And it's the first thing I did, because that is non-revenue producing activity and that's what I call it. For me. I don't want to do anything that's non-revenue producing. Yes, Absolutely Right.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:30

That's right. That's exactly right, a hundred percent, and I think that's why you have the reputation that you have as a digital marketer for law firms. You know you guys stand out. You know you stand out because you are different. You create your own category, so to speak, and you talk about such practical things, like I've heard you stress the importance of somebody answering the phone at a law firm 24-7, how important that is. You ever get pushback on that?

Josh Konigsberg: 16:02

Yeah, occasionally I do, occasionally I do. It doesn't make sense to me. So it's almost as if they don't want the stress of having to pay for and monitor an outside service. And is it worth it? Am I really losing leads? We actually lay out the recent Harvard study and all that. I actually put it into a slide deck for them and so, again, that's a right fit.

Josh Konigsberg: 16:36

Okay, so if I'm going to be held accountable for your marketing and I'm going to drive qualified leads and you're not, you can't convert them. We're probably not a right fit. So so, do you want to achieve your goals or don't you want to achieve your goals? It's this or that, right? So so you know and I could go on about intake and talk about intake and the problems we see with that you know when, when, when the owner's wife's, girlfriends are answering the phones but they're not really doing the job that they probably should be. You know, that's part of what you run into, right? And so, look, this person, you got to listen to these phone calls. Well, we don't record calls. Well, if you're not recording your calls, how do you know whether they're A being managed properly or what areas of improvement you can potentially make to increase your conversion rate, because that's one of the questions I asked early on.

Josh Konigsberg: 17:28

What's your conversion rate? Well, for your type of law, I normally see 40% to 60%. For this other type of law, I'll see 70% to 90%. You're in that type of law. I'll see 70 to 90%. You're in that type of law, but you're only at 40%. What's the problem? Oh, shitty leads. Well, no, it's not shitty leads. You can't tell me. You know, it's like the, it's like Glenn Gary, glenn Ross right, the leads suck, right? No?

Intro/Outro: 17:52

they don't suck.

Josh Konigsberg: 17:53

Okay, you can't tell me somebody's typing in a state planning attorney in kalamazoo and they're not looking for they're not a good lead for a state planning attorney. Now, not everybody is necessarily has have, has really has an estate right, but that's something that needs to be vetted out. So so I've actually heard recordings where the person answering the phone said, oh well, you're too far away, it's, you probably should talk, call somebody else. Well, how, how? Who are you to make the determination? How far someone's willing to drive to meet with your, your, your expert even though they can't use that term with your expert attorney, right? So can you imagine? So we call it the client rejection department.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:39

Seriously, seriously right. We're not qualifying anymore, we're just dismissing. Yep, you know, as I think about this and I think about how you know a law firm just like every other business, it's necessary that they focus on bringing in those leads and converting those leads. I mean, this is true for every business. Really see, are there things that you recommend that, hey, if you could just do one thing, you could just take one next step, one action? What is one thing they can do that's going to make a difference when it comes to increasing leads?

Josh Konigsberg: 19:18

and conversions. It depends upon the type of law and the size of the firm. So if you're a solo practitioner, you've got to continue to attend those networking events. You've got to continue your B&Is and you've got to go to every networking breakfast that you can and the cocktail parties I've got two coming up on the same day later this month that are personal injury attorney networking events where they've got all the you know, the doctors are going to be there and the diagnostic companies and all that.

Josh Konigsberg: 19:52

Outside of that, there's a ratio of what percent of your budget should be invested in digital marketing. So there's a percent of your fee income and then of that there's a percentage that should be spent in digital versus branding and that changes over time as the law firms grow, so that if you're less than $3 million, it's 80-20. From, let's say, $3 million to $6 or $7 million, it's going to be 60-40. And then anything over $7 million, it's going to be 20% digital, 80% branding. So because the focus should be on something else and the focus should be on less than $3 million is really client acquisition. Next stage, your focus really should be on building the right team. Now that you've got all this revenue coming in, you can really invest in the top quality management and personnel that you need.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:44

And you know you've touched on this several times already but the importance of evaluation as part of your growth process. You know experience does not make you any better. Evaluated experience is what makes you better and whether it's listening to the phone calls, right, and evaluating, hey boy, that was a swing and a miss. Or hey, home run, keep doing that. Like that type of evaluation happening at that level, or happening at lead acquisition and conversion level, right, like and thinking strategically across the whole organization like are we moving in the right direction? What's working, what's not, what do we need to do better? Evaluation seems to be a part of what you do in the service you provide for your clients and helping them to really evaluate, not just based on their feelings or their gut or anecdotes, but based on actual data. Yeah, so great question and great point feelings or their gut or anecdotes, but based on actual data.

Josh Konigsberg: 23:08

Yeah, so great, great question and great point. So the data points, some of them are really crystal clear, we know that right. Some of them, I want to say, are vague, and the vagueness I'm going to talk about has to do with attribution. So, and the attribution is based upon the customer journey, right? So what does the customer journey look like today, versus five years ago, versus 10 years ago?

Intro/Outro: 23:36

Right.

Josh Konigsberg: 23:37

So I can tell you, in law specifically, that the market has rushed to us since COVID, because prior to COVID, attorneys are notoriously slow with technology, so I didn't know that until we focused on the niche. So the attribution problem is there are so many touch points in the process for the customer to ultimately become the client, and what do those touch points look like? So, um, you know, I'll tell a story about a client who, uh, had a consult come in off of paid ads. They have their normal um follow-up automations, right. So touch, touch, touch, confirm, confirm, confirm. It's called a PNC Potential New Client. The PNC was a no-show. We all do that, right, they have their automated follow-up. Sorry you missed our meeting. Please reschedule. Touch, touch, touch Phone call, phone call, phone call Absolute ghost. Right Three weeks later, same person comes in off of a Facebook ad campaign, so the first one came off of Google paid ads.

Josh Konigsberg: 24:53

Same person comes in off of a Facebook ad campaign, so the first one came off of Google paid ads. Same person comes in off of a Facebook ad campaign and it was a quiz campaign that we're running. They come in through the funnel, they book through the automation, they show up for their consult and they retain the attorney. So does the first. Google paid ad support. The second as part of the attribution process. I would say so, that's part of branding right Absolutely. And to further illustrate that, what's the first thing that a consumer does, regardless of what the purchase is, regardless of how they found, whether it's a law firm or a restaurant or an air conditioning contractor what's the first thing the consumer does? They go online and check you. Out right.

Josh Konigsberg: 25:31

Google, that's it.

Josh Konigsberg: 25:33

And when they go to Google, what are they doing? They're reading reviews, right, that's it. So I'll even say that your review acquisition and you need breadth throughout the system, but the review and even the responsiveness today to reviews is super, super important. We've got a fantastic program, by the way, called Top Rated Law Firm. So the consumer is depending upon where they are in the buying cycle, the urgency associated with the purchase and the risk associated with the purchase. So let's talk about that.

Josh Konigsberg: 26:05

We'll determine how deep they go into the review process, whether that review process is just reading Google reviews, going to Yelp or other generics, right. Or going to verticals like FindLaw and Lawyerscom and Super Lawyers and all that, right. And if you're doing your marketing properly and you're retargeting them as they're going through this journey, right, and ultimately they could come in through a retargeting ad and engage that way Again, who gets where? Does the attribution go, right? So maybe they're now seeing video on YouTube because of a retargeting ad then redirected them to a video on YouTube and now they go down that rabbit hole in YouTube, on your YouTube channel, right, before they make their decision to pick up the phone and call or fill out a form or chatbot before they make their decision to pick up the phone and call or fill out a form or chatbot.

Josh Konigsberg: 26:57

So the risk if it's significant, it's typically going to be a protracted buying cycle, so I'll give a couple of different examples. Okay, I have a legacy agency client that's a plastic surgeon. What's the risk associated with a woman getting a facelift? Pretty significant, wouldn't you say?

Dr. William Attaway: 27:11

I mean, if it doesn't go well.

Josh Konigsberg: 27:15

Right. So there's two risks. There's actually three, but it's A what am I going to look like after? Right? B, there's a financial risk. It's not inexpensive. Right, you want to go with a low cost provider on a facelift? I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend it. Okay, and the other risk is downtime right. How long am I going to be out of work? How long am I going to be able to? How long do I need to stay in my house before I can actually show my face somewhere? Right? So all those factors in making that decision. Now let's flip it over to law. Family law. Protracted buying cycle, right? Why? Well, because argument makeup, argument makeup, right. Unhappy marriage things are good unless there is a triggering event. You're walking a spouse and, god forbid, there's an abuse situation, right, and that's one of the other reasons why you want to have 24-hour answering, because I'm picturing a woman in her car or in the bathroom on the phone. She's been abused, right, you need to answer the phone and you need to answer the phone with empathy right.

Josh Konigsberg: 28:20

That is a long. Unless those events are happening, it's a long decision. It's a serious decision, right? Some people will just stay in a bad marriage, right decision. Right Some people will just stay in a bad marriage, right. So that, versus criminal defense and typically criminal defense, is a much shorter buying cycle, even though and, by the way, the risk associated with a family law is I got to split up half my stuff.

Josh Konigsberg: 28:43

I've got kids. What's going to happen with the kids? What's going to happen with the kids if my spouse meets someone else? Is my daughter going to get abused? Is my son going to get abused, et cetera, et cetera? All those things are factors that come into play. So that risk is significant, and even more so now when you get into a child custody battle. I won full custody of my kids. I understand the risk and it is a serious, serious matter. Okay, when your children are in potential harm's way. Let's now flip to the criminal defense. Let's just say my son. He's got his driver's license, he's underage, he's out at a party and he gets a DUI and he's 18 years old and he's in county lockup with real criminals. I get a call from county lockup at 2 am. How long is my decision-making process in selecting a criminal defense attorney? To get down to the jailhouse to get my son out of county where he's in real danger.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:40

Measured in seconds.

Josh Konigsberg: 29:41

Yeah, it's 10 minutes. Right, let's try it. It's Google reviews open, open. Oh, that guy's closed. He's got the best reputation or he's closed. I'm not calling him, he's closed. Yep, yep.

Intro/Outro: 29:54

Moving on.

Josh Konigsberg: 29:55

You need to be open 24-7, right, and you need to have somebody answer the phone. Hello, right, yes, so good. So the risk associated with that is significant, right. But at the same time and by the way, how much am I willing to pay? Here's the Amex card, right, right, right. So that is all part of the psychology, and I like to say this, I haven't said it yet A big part of marketing, large part, is leveraging the psychology of consumer behavior so you can monetize it right, that's well said, thank you.

Dr. William Attaway: 30:33

You have to lead your team and your business at a much higher level today than you did five or 10 years ago, and that same thing is going to be true five years from now. How do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the skills that your team and your clients are going to need you to have in the weeks and months and years ahead?

Josh Konigsberg: 30:57

Well, you know it's Stephen Covey. You know you've got to sharpen the saw right. It's reading books like Catalytic Leadership, right. So it's attending the right conferences and being part of the right groups and organizations, like a seven-figure agency, and surrounding yourself with the right mentors. So I'm part of a couple of different masterminds and one of them is a marketing mastermind in Miami. Only eight people in all of South Florida have been invited to this group. Actually, our joint friend, josh Nelson, used to be a member of this group. No one has all the answers, right. So we can expose ourselves to mentors and some of it's just podcasting. It's listening to the. You know I personally love Ed Milet. I think, depending on what I'm in the mood for not so much as leadership, is Patrick Ben David.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:50

Love him as well.

Josh Konigsberg: 31:54

There's obviously other fantastic leaders out there. Some of it's I don't want to say it's natural, but again, it's hiring the right people, it's getting the right systems and procedures in place, eos and then it's just entrusting. Yes.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:12

And empowering.

Josh Konigsberg: 32:13

That's right, that's right, that's right. And if you have the right empowerment tools in place. So one of the things we've done is we've been very transparent with our team. Our plan is to sell this. Maybe it's five years from now. So we've actually built a model for every employee whether it's management, whether it's support team, whether it's North American or non-North American whereby when we sell the agency and that might be five years, it might be 10 years, we don't know right you are getting a percentage of the sale. There's no stock ownership, but you get a percentage of the sale. And that no stock ownership, but you get a percentage of the sale, and that percentage increases each year. You're with the company. Oh, wow, right, and so we have a three-strike policy, right? So if you get written up more than once in a 12-month period, the clock starts over. How's that for motivation?

Dr. William Attaway: 33:12

That's motivation period. The clock starts over.

Josh Konigsberg: 33:14

How's that for motivation? That's motivation. At the end of the day, it's really just behavior modification. So we've got a fantastic behavior modification. I can't dock your pay, I'm not going to do that, but we need you on your game, because how many digital marketing agencies are knocking on my attorney's doors every day and saying, hey, law firm marketing pros doesn't know what they're doing. Look at this and they're fudging the data so good.

Intro/Outro: 33:43

Is there a book that?

Dr. William Attaway: 33:44

has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening hey, if you haven't read this, check this one out.

Josh Konigsberg: 33:52

So many, I mean in terms of leadership, wow, so many good books. I focus mostly on marketing-type books. That works too. Yeah, I'm going way back in time. Probably. You know I'm thinking back over the years, the years 20, 30 years ago, right, 35 years ago. Books that I've read that were like, so on point. I'd rather say it this way so there's one person that had an incredible amount of influence on me as a leader and entrepreneur. So I was so fortunate to have this man in my life at just probably the right, right, right point in time. So, uh, he was a a hockey coach, um, and he also was the president of McNeil pharmaceuticals. So if you don't know who McNeil Pharmaceuticals is, they make Tylenol, oh, wow. So he coached me for two years and when I graduated, he asked me to be his assistant coach. My goodness, so he was so influential. It's hard to describe the nuggets of wisdom that you pick up with someone that's reached that level. Who went from. You know he was a marine drill instructor, so practices were a whole bunch of fun.

Josh Konigsberg: 35:24

Nobody's slacking but so many good life lessons were learned from him that you carry forward throughout life. So, in terms of if there's one book, I really couldn't say that there's one book that comes to mind specific to leadership, I can tell you there's so many great marketing books. I can tell you there's so many great marketing books. You know I'm a fan of Dan Kennedy. You know I think Chet Holmes was just tremendous with the Ultimate Sales Machine. You know I've read Russell Brunson's books. You know they're all so on point and so helpful. So yeah, I wish I could, but nothing comes to mind. I'm trying to picture my library at home and it's nothing like yours, maybe a third of yours.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:16

I think you illustrated a very important point, josh, and that is you know the impact that someone can have that lasts a lifetime. You know, so often we are so quick to dismiss the impact we have on other people and we think, oh, it's no big deal, you know, it's just a year or two or three, you know, and that was it. But wow, I mean, the ripples from this coach's investment in your life have continued to bear fruit decades later, decades upon decades later. I mean, that's phenomenal, that that's what comes to your mind, and I think that illustrates the power of true catalytic leadership.

Josh Konigsberg: 36:57

Well, well said, you know, and it's funny to use the word impact, because over my shoulder here I've got two awards from dot-com magazine and their impact of the year awards and I won it two years in a row and I didn't. I wasn't necessarily trying to win it. I I mean, I it's when. When they first called me, I'm like how do you even know about me?

Dr. William Attaway: 37:20

that's awesome yeah.

Josh Konigsberg: 37:21

So to me having being able to pay that forward and have impact and I've been involved in coaching since then and on and off and on different levels, and been a mentor to some of my children's friends over the years and you know it's funny there were multiple situations with my daughter's girlfriends that they were, for one reason or another, there was no father figure in their life and it's as if I became a surrogate father to probably four or five young women who just needed some guidance and so to see them grow and mature something as simple as that and blossom into wonderful young women. One of them is married and lives in Hawaii. Another one has she's married, has a young child and she goes to these farmer markets in the area. She makes candles and stuff and sells them. So just to have that positive impact is great.

Dr. William Attaway: 38:24

I love that. Yeah, I could continue to learn from you for another hour. There's so many insights that you have shared today and I'm so grateful for your generosity in that. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you and more about what you do. What's the best way for them to do that?

Josh Konigsberg: 38:46

Well, our website is lawfirmmarketingproscom. You can go there and sign up for our newsletter. That's probably the easiest way. There is a call option that's really reserved for attorneys, so, please, attorneys only take advantage of that. And it's a request to call, so if you're a non-attorney and fill that out, you're not going to get a call back. You'll actually get an email. Yeah, that's the best way is through the website, and I welcome and encourage it. And thank you so much, william, for having me Really enjoyed chatting with you and getting to know you better today as well, and look forward to hopefully Catalytic Leadership becomes my favorite leadership book when I finish.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:34

I always hope it's helpful, josh, thank you.

Josh Konigsberg: 39:37

All right, bye for now.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:38

Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 40:14

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church, business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. If you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 40:58

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.