How To Start Your Leadership Growth Journey With Scott Allen

Leadership is not only about authority but about creating a positive, lasting impact. In this episode, Scott Allen, a former professor and now full-time consultant, shares his insights into the journey of leadership growth—from the first moments of discovery to the challenge of putting theory into action. Scott reflects on his transition from academia to consulting, a move inspired by his passion for real-time problem-solving and hands-on influence. Throughout our conversation, Scott emphasizes that ‘who you are is how you lead,’ explaining how self-awareness and personal growth are essential for effective leadership. We delve into the ways leaders shape team culture, or as Scott puts it, ‘create the weather,’ and he provides actionable steps to set a positive, intentional tone for your team. Scott also discusses his unique approach to leadership within family life and how everyday interactions can be opportunities for growth. Whether you’re a seasoned leader or just starting your leadership journey, this episode offers valuable lessons on creating an impact that lasts.



Connect with Scott Allen:


If you’re looking to deepen your understanding of leadership and connect with someone who’s truly passionate about making a difference, I encourage you to reach out to Scott Allen on LinkedIn or through his website, ScottJAllen.net. His insights can equip you with practical strategies to elevate your leadership journey.



Books Mentioned:

• The Leadership Challenge by James M. Kouzes and Barry Z. Posner 

Join the New Catalytic Leadership Community

Check out our new online membership site, with new resources by Dr. William Attaway and his team added weekly: https://checkout.catalyticleadership.net/

Chapters

• 0:01 Introduction to Leadership Journey
• 5:12 Transitioning from Academia
• 9:11 Who You Are Is How You Lead
• 15:20 Leaders Create the Weather
• 19:52 Leadership in Family Life
• 25:00 Key Habits for Leadership Growth
• 36:06 Recommended Books for Leaders

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

It's so great today to have Scott Allen on the podcast. Scott is an award-winning educator, passionate about working with people at all levels and across industries. He's been a professor of management, spending significant time investing in executive education. His areas of expertise include leader development, the future of work and executive communication. Scott's published more than 60 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters. He also hosts the podcast Phronesis Practical Wisdom for Leaders, ranked among the world's top 2.5% of podcasts. Scott frequently serves as a keynote speaker and facilitates workshops across industries. Scott, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Scott Allen: 0:46

Oh, it's a great way to start my weekend. Sir, Thank you for having me. I appreciate it Absolutely.

Intro/Outro: 0:53

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:09

I would love to start our conversation today with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader.

Scott Allen: 1:20

For me, it all started in college, in my college fraternity, and that might sound a little bit silly to some, but I'd never led anything, I'd never led a thing. And I get into this organization at the University of Minnesota. I joined because my best friend joined and a couple of years in I find myself in this leadership position and I just kind of fell in love. We were making a lot of progress, we were improving, things were kind of humming in a really, really nice way. We recruited some other people that were similar values and we started knocking out of the park and I was kind of like, wow, this is kind of interesting, this is fun, I'm intrigued, right. So I graduate from the University of Minnesota and I actually went and worked for my fraternity and my job was to help us become closer aligned with really who we said we were. As you can imagine, there's a lot of locations around North America where we say we're one thing but we're actually probably not really living up to that. So how do we as an organization more closely align with who we say we are and really live those values At that job?

Scott Allen: 2:31

My supervisor, great mentor of my life, one of those individuals who I was just lucky that I crossed paths with him. His name was Bob Cottrell and he hosted this book club Thursday mornings at 7am and we read the book the Leadership Challenge. And those Thursday morning conversations just lit me up. I mean I just had jet fuel. I was amazed that leadership was something you could study, that someone had written a book about it. As silly as it might sound, it wasn't something that was the norm, as it is today in a lot of high schools or a lot of colleges that we really talk about effective leadership or read about effective leadership. So I was hooked and we read the Leadership Challenge, jim Kouzes and Barry Posner and you know I just reread their seventh edition, which was just such a wonderful way to kind of tap back in.

Scott Allen: 3:30

But from there I went on and got a graduate degree in human resource development and then did a PhD in leadership and change. And you know it was Saturday or Sunday and I just had so much energy for as silly as it sounds reading the literature, reading journal articles, kind of really getting into what is it that people know about, what makes a great leader? So from there really it started probably around 1997, 1996, where I started really exploring the topic, but it was in college where it started for me and since then I've just been enthralled. It's fascinating to me and, as you know from hosting a podcast, you're just I'm so intrigued by the fact that I keep stumbling upon things A I don't know Really all the podcast has done for me, and the PhD was help me understand how little.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:25

A hundred percent. You know, much there is for me to learn. I feel the same way. The deeper I got into my PhD studies, the more I realized wow, I know, I know this much like. There's so much more.

Scott Allen: 4:40

It's a drop in the ocean, right? Yes, yes. So I think that's what's kind of fun about the topic too is that you know, I had a gentleman on the on the program. His name was Chip Shoba, he's a physician, and he said, look, this work is a mountain without a top, and it's just it's. It's kept me intrigued. It really has for a few decades now.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:00

I love that imagery a mountain without a top.

Scott Allen: 5:03

Yes, it's kind of ominous, but also awesome.

Intro/Outro: 5:09

It is.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:11

Yeah. Oh that's so good. Yeah, you know, when I was reading about you and your career in academia, it was impressive. Oh, thank you, and I know you have recently made a turn from that and are doing something a little bit different now. Can you talk about what it is that you have jumped into these days?

Scott Allen: 5:37

Yeah, so okay got this puzzle of leader development and I spent 17 years in higher ed as a full-time academic and really, really enjoyed that work. Just I found it fascinating and in recent years I've been paying very, very close attention to my energy. Like where was my energy? And my energy was very much kind of located in the podcast, very much located in some of the consulting work that I was doing, because interfacing with individuals with kind of the problem now the case studies, the real live case studies in their heads that really are impacting literally them this moment, the email they just received while they were in the session that really existing in that space, really fired me up. And then also in that space I was learning and am continue to learn, because one day I'm with an organization that is focused on Catholicism, the next day it's an organization that's insurance, it might be banking, it might be automotive, it might be architecture, construction I mean all these different nooks and crannies of the world and learning about those organizations and again, trying to be helpful in assisting these leaders in thinking about how to approach some of the really gnarly challenges that they're facing.

Scott Allen: 7:03

So I made a shift. I let my dean know last spring I'd achieved full professor, kind of had this job for life, so to speak, and I wasn't feeling the energy for the classroom to the level I was feeling the energy of being out there in the world. So I made the transition and it's just been incredible. It's really really helped me explore this topic of leader development from a whole new perspective, having more times I almost feel like Jane Goodall in a way. You know, I'm kind of embedded in the organization in a little bit of a different way and really paying close attention to the themes, to what are some of the conversations, what are some of the struggles, and so that's just been.

Scott Allen: 7:47

It's been fascinating, it really has, and for now that's where my energy is. I don't know if it'll be there seven years from now, who knows, maybe someday I'll go back to academia, but for now I knew that there was something more and a lot more to learn. I knew that there was something more and a lot more to learn. And that's, I think, really, really important for me is that I'm in these contexts that are helping me really engage in the learning. And so, again, the podcast. I'm learning every week when I'm with these organizations, I'm learning, and I'm learning about the very real case studies that these leaders are facing and, as you know, it's not easy work.

Scott Allen: 8:27

It's challenging work. You never get bored, that's for sure. No, no, you start to kind of see some themes and start to kind of see, and again, it's so much fun to look at it through the lens of some of the academic work. But I always have had an eye for how do we take the theory and actually have it in foreign practice? For how do we take the theory and actually have it informed practice? How do we take the theory and communicate it in a way that's actionable to someone who's not immersed in the literature?

Scott Allen: 8:54

Because there's some incredible academic thinking but it's stuck behind a paywall in these academic journals that no one sees Right, and I think that's tragic. I mean, I really do. So I kind of love that role of being a translator and taking this really cool concept from something no one would have ever read, of course, giving them credit for that thinking, but then translating and saying here's how that impacts you today today, you know, when I was reading about you and I came across two quotes that seemed to resonate throughout your online presence, and I'd love to hear why these quotes mean so much to you.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:39

The first one is who you are is how you lead. Yeah, what does that mean for you?

Scott Allen: 9:46

So Bob Hogan said that Hogan assessments, so a lot of listeners will understand that as kind of a a real uh. Bob Hogan has been at the forefront of a lot of that thinking around assessments and leadership in that space For sure. And you know, for me that quote can mean it has so many different levels to it. I think one thing it doesn't mean at times people can kind of take it this way who you are is how you lead, is that you're fixed, that who you are is how you always will be, and I don't think I don't take it that way at all. However, for me it's an individual's level of maturity. It is aspects of someone's personality your level of optimism, grit, conscientiousness, those elements blood like no, you couldn't even feel the needle go in. They were awesome and they showed up on time and they were a really nice person. Everyone loved them. We now place them in a position of authority. Of course we give them their press Ganey scores, customer satisfaction, tell them their quality scores for their department, show them the PNL and say good luck. And you, and obviously this person has a completely new job and oftentimes we don't prepare them with the skills. So I think who you are is how you lead. Well, what is your skill level? Are you skilled at leading meetings? Are you skilled at influencing others? Are you skilled at motivating or inspiring? That matters, that matters greatly. Just like for a phlebotomy, it matters. If you can poke me and not hurt me, that matters greatly. Just like for a phlebotomy, it matters if you can poke me and not hurt me, that matters greatly. That is true. Yes, Well, and so the equivalent, I think, is you could take me and a PhD in leadership and say well, you know a lot about management, Go do healthcare. Well, I could probably learn it, but I would hurt some people in the process, I would.

Scott Allen: 11:45

And I think at times we're putting people in positions of authority, not giving them the tools and the training, and they're hurting and damaging culture. Yes, so it's your skill level, it's your knowledge of leadership. So we place people in these positions of authority. Well, who you are, what is your actual knowledge about the activity of leading others? And for some they've never picked up a leadership book and that kind of shows up to the group. So this is your emotional intelligence, this is your lived history, who you are. I bring with me my history and there may be some trauma in that background and if I haven't resolved that, how does that show up for the team?

Scott Allen: 12:29

So I think for me, who you are matters greatly, and I think the punchline for me is are you a person who's? Do you have a system in place to always be becoming a better version of yourself? For me, I have a therapist, Dr Phil, and I see Dr Phil every two weeks. I get on the phone, I go on a walk and I talk with Dr Phil. I have a mentor. I speak with him every couple of weeks. I have my wife. We go on a walk every morning at no bad weather, just bad gear and we get on the same page and we talk and we communicate.

Scott Allen: 13:01

I'm always listening to audio books. I'm listening to Jocko Willink Dichotomy of Leadership right now and you know, not academic kind of tone, but really, really good stuff in there. So, and one reason I love this quote also is I think you could put a different word at the end of that statement who you are is how you parent. Who you are is how you coach. Who you are is how you teach. Who you are is how and that matters. I mean, if you're in a position of authority, it matters. So for me, the punchline on that quote is are you continually trying to become a better version of self? If others are in your care, are you the best possible version of yourself and are you in that? Are you doing that work? Because we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who's in a good place and really trying to become a better version of themselves, and we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who struggles with that work. Right, that's so good.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:02

Yeah, I love that. And I love that because the first thing I thought when I read it was exactly what you said. I thought oh, it's a fixed thing, so who you are, who you are, that's it.

Intro/Outro: 14:13

That's what you got.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:15

I was like no, no, no, no. I love hearing you explain that because it really it shows the depth. It's almost like a mountain with no top.

Scott Allen: 14:26

We're going to keep coming back to that I'm just saying.

Scott Allen: 14:28

You know a friend of mine, mike Moscolo. He says look, each person is an infinity. You know a friend of mine, mike Moscolo, he says look, each person is an infinity. And you know the differences in our live between the two of us, our lived realities, our history, the parents, whatever they were modeling in the home, I mean, that is just vastly the infinite number of variables there. And so I just that quote keeps me, it keeps my mind cooking, it just does. And you can get into some really fun conversations through that quote. I start a lot of my sessions that way with clients and that conversation can go on for a while. For sure, that conversation can go on for a while.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:12

For sure. The other quote that jumped out as I was looking at you was this one Leaders create the weather. Four words and I immediately had an entire landscape of pictures in my head. What does that one mean to you?

Scott Allen: 17:08

Well, one thing is I wish I had thought of that, but my friend Jonathan Reams did. You know how could I do this? What could I come up with? What other things other than weather do we all experience? I mean, it's just such a beautiful image and again, I love that quote because parents create the weather, coaches create the weather, teachers create the weather. And so I think you know another way of saying this is what's the emotional tone, what is the tone you're setting in that space?

Scott Allen: 17:36

So you've worked for individuals somewhere along the way where it was just kind of tornadic. It was just, it was hurricane-like, it was just. There was always, things were swirling and it was a little bit of a chaotic space. Their world was a little chaotic. Your world became a little chaotic. You've probably worked for someone who, every day, it was just a little 50 and rainy, you know you'd say how are you doing? They'd say crappy. You'd be like, oh, okay, well, go get them. You know, have a great day. You know, and, and Jim, that's, that's, that's the weather pattern. You put Jim in a position of authority and, uh, you know it, it's, it's kind of a depressing place to be.

Scott Allen: 18:19

So I'm not saying that it's always, you know, 70 and sunny. We can't all live in San Diego, but what I love about that quote is you know what is what's weather over time? Well, it's climate. And what's another word for climate? I mean culture. Culture, kind of, make that, that, that leap a little bit. So, yeah, is it hot and just Sahara like and just really really, really uncomfortable in the space? Is it cold like a Siberian gulag? Is it cold and just I mean.

Scott Allen: 18:50

So I love that quote because I think it reminds me, even as a parent, part of my job is to set a tone, and what is that tone that I'm setting with my kids in a general sense? Again, it's not always 70 and sunny. There's thunderstorms, every once in a while there's a little bit of a hurricane, but in a general sense, am I conscious of the fact that the energy I'm putting out matters? And I think at times people struggle with that and if you're living with that, or if you're being coached by that, or you know, you had that teacher where you walked in, you thought you loved history and all of a sudden it got really dry in the space. It was a long semester and it was just wow, this is a. Can I get a little water please? I just want to be quenched. But no, dr Johnson couldn't bring that to the table right.

Scott Allen: 19:50

So that's another one that just it kind of sticks with me in a very powerful way. But again, that's my friend Jonathan Reams, Just brilliant.

Dr. William Attaway: 20:00

So good. You talk about the family, and you've run across this a couple of times already in our conversation today. You talk about the family as an opportunity to practice leadership. What do you see?

Scott Allen: 20:15

there. How do you see that? Okay, so my wife and I, we definitely one definition of leadership is the process of influencing others toward a common vision, process of influencing others toward a common vision, process of influencing others toward a common vision. We could get into like semantics of how we want to define it, but that's one that I'll just kind of try on and use and enjoy. Well then, that would mean that part of my wife and I, our role, is influence our children toward a common vision. That might be influencing them to prioritize their grades or influence them to tap into something that they're passionate about here on earth.

Scott Allen: 20:52

So we very, very much, a lot of our walks in the morning we are talking about, okay, how do we influence our son or our daughter? And it might be just like nudge. You know, let's not have to ground or take away. I mean not that that's never happened, it has and a lot of the time we're talking about how do we gently nudge, guide, influence towards success, whatever success means. It might be getting the part, it might mean tapping into a passion that they have, experimenting with something new, and that's for me. I don't think you have to have a title to lead, I don't think you have to have a position of authority to have influence. So we very, very much, and parenting is a great mirror for what you need to work on.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:48

Boy, isn't that true?

Scott Allen: 21:50

If you slow down and pay close attention. Yeah, you know so I don't really say this very often, but the day my wife before our son was born, she said look, I just hope you really enjoy this experience as a parent and really stay present with the experience. And so I took that to heart and so every day that my first task on my to-do list is I write a sentence about each child. When my son was born, I pulled out my laptop. I wrote a sentence, and literally every day for 16 plus years, I wrote a sentence, and literally every day for 16 plus years I've written a sentence. Wow, yeah, and have done that with the twin girls as well. Every day there's a sentence. And it might be you walked for the first time today. It might be we were in Washington state and we visited Boeing. Who knows what it is, but it's something about their life and who they are.

Scott Allen: 22:48

And recently my entrance, my entry for my son has been you're challenging me to get better because I'm not good enough yet. In certain ways, I'm not there yet. And again, it's this wonderful mirror to where I can improve, develop and grow, and I think as parents, it's very easy to look at them and their deficiencies and what they're not doing. But it's a little more challenging to kind of turn that towards ourselves, and my wife and I have a really wonderful relationship and she's helpful. She's very helpful. I can just look at her and she can, you know, give me a glance like you're failing right now. You're not good enough yet. Step it up. It's not working. Poor timing there, scott. That was not the time, but you walked into it and it blew up, didn't it? Her emotional and social intelligence is at like a nine, and I'm in process.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:43

I'm with you.

Scott Allen: 23:44

Same situation.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:45

My wife helps me so much in that I totally get that man.

Scott Allen: 23:51

So, yeah, I mean. So I I've told this story a couple of times too. Like you know, the, the pandemic, and and I'm what I'm about to say it's it's a privileged story, Right, so I understand that. But that was some of our happiest times as a family in those couple years, in the sense that it was an opportunity for us to model problem solving for the kids. It was an opportunity to model optimism in the face of challenge, where some things that they would say, things like, well, this is not going to be a great Thanksgiving, and we would say, well, how do we make this the best Thanksgiving ever? And we started some wonderful traditions as a family during those years.

Scott Allen: 24:31

So I think, parenting for sure, social learning theory, Albert Bandura, what's being modeled in your environment? We have an opportunity to model for our kids communication, healthy boundaries, what is humorous and fun, healthy, fun, and so for me, again, it kind of comes back to who you are is how you lead, who you are is how you parent. Am I the best version of myself for trying to be? And because I do view it. I view it as a leadership role, as an opportunity to practice leadership for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:06

You know, everybody listening to this show is listening because they want to become better. This is something that we talk about frequently that you do not have to stay where you are. You can choose something different. You can choose to grow and change In your expertise from what you have seen and learned so far in your journey. What would you say if one of the listeners were to say what can I do to improve my leadership?

Scott Allen: 25:32

today. A couple things come to mind for me. A couple things really important things come to mind for me. So one who are your thinking partners? Who are those individuals that you can go to, that you can confide in? Again, I have Phil, gary, my wife. Those are three core. I also have some mentors in the community that I connect in with that I learn from that. I ask key questions of. These aren't people that I'm kind of commiserating with, and it's not a relationship where like, oh yeah, they are horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are relationships where I'm saying I'm failing here, I'm not seeing results, I'm wondering why. And they're thinking partners. Right, they're individuals that are helping me. So who are those individuals for you? It's not a drinking buddy, although I guess you could have a beer and have a really insightful conversation, but you know what I'm saying. This isn't just, like you know, I'm palling around and watching the game. These are individuals where you can have deep conversations and share some of those limitations and be vulnerable with those individuals. And so that's for me, one of the most important pieces.

Scott Allen: 26:44

Number two there's a mindset here that when I'm not getting the results I want and again, parenting, workplace, community there's a mindset here of what do I need to own in this kind of situation? What do I need to own in this challenge? What do I need to own in us challenge, what do I need to own in us not getting the results that we want? And I think in that there's a lot of potential learning. It's called self-serving bias. We tend to externalize and blame others. If my boss doesn't get it, well, why don't they? Have I not been skilled at influencing them? Am I not communicating in a way where they can hear it? I mean, there's learning there, right? And that's exactly the type of question I might bring a mentor and say look, I see this, this and this as opportunities. I'm not getting anywhere. What am I missing? What could I be doing differently? So there's a mindset that keeps you in a place of growth and development and searching. We tend to externalize some of those failures, those limitations, blame others. And I think, if we at least put it through that lens, what do I need to own? I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example from parenting.

Scott Allen: 28:03

So, as a parent of teenagers, a challenge I'm confronting right now is it can be the case that every time I interact with them. It's because something hasn't been picked up hasn't been picked up again. It's the third time. This is an ongoing conversation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and I can walk around the house and I can see those things very, very easily and I can name them very easily, but they may not want to spend a lot of time with me or interact all that much with me. If that's the only thing I'm saying, that's the only interactions we're having.

Scott Allen: 28:43

So what I've been practicing lately is I have to make those deposits into the emotional bank account, and it's a little bit harder right now, but I have to be very conscious. You know my daughter's studying and really going above and beyond and working hard. I have to be able to remind myself to pause, slow down and say I'm so proud of you, you are working hard. Thank you, right. And so it's very easy for me to see what they're not doing. It's very difficult for me to see oh, wow, you're kind of every interaction is a little bit negative and probably not all that positive. What's up with that, scott, right? So does that make sense? When I say that, I mean it's super interesting.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:27

I think all of us are drawn and leaders. I think we we see. I mean Maxwell says we see more than others see, and we see before others see. Right and so so yeah, I totally resonate with that. And the danger is that we start to hold people accountable for a gift they don't have, because if they're not in the same space, if they don't have the same experience, they don't see what we see.

Scott Allen: 29:51

Yeah, and why don't they? Maybe it has to do with us not communicating well, right.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:56

Maybe we haven't led them to yet, right yeah?

Scott Allen: 29:59

We just have to put it through that filter right In the classroom. I always would give out assignments, of course, and sometimes papers would come back and they'd be terrible and it was really easy for me to see like, oh kids, these days they don't know how to write. And sometimes I was confusing, I wasn't clear, I didn't communicate exactly what it was I was looking for or really outline what the expectations were. I always owned a little piece in what came back to me. Does that make sense?

Dr. William Attaway: 30:31

A hundred percent? Yeah, I think. I think great leaders ask what is mine to own here? Yes, what is mine to own here? Yes, you know one of my mentors I remember he was talking about his team coming to him and saying, well, our team won't, and they won't, and they won't. And he stopped them and he said we haven't led them to yet. And that's like I'm going to own what's mine to own. We're going to own what's ours to own. We're not just going to play the blame game because nobody wins that.

Scott Allen: 31:02

Yes, and ultimately, I think, as leaders, if we want to develop and grow, we need to figure out ways to hack that. What can be a very common kind of pathway? Our minds go down a cognitive bias that we struggle with at times. And what are some hacks? Because there's data there. When we're not getting the results we want, like my example with teaching when we aren't seeing the team inspired, motivated and engaged well, that's data. Yeah, what do I potentially need to own in that? Oh, I didn't. The only time they hear from me you know management by exception the only time they hear from me is when something's wrong, right, right, I mean. So if that's the only game I'm bringing to the table of leadership, quote unquote just talking to them when something's gone wrong and I come across a lot of people where that's kind of what they say I never hear from her unless I've done something wrong. Well, no wonder the team isn't motivated and engaged and inspired by you. That sounds pretty a natural human reaction a natural human reaction.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:16

Sure, and that same thing can so often sadly be said about parents with kids or even couples with each other.

Scott Allen: 32:19

Okay, the only time I hear is what's wrong.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:22

The only time I hear is what I'm doing wrong. The only time they ever talk is they just tell me what I'm, what I'm screwing up.

Scott Allen: 32:28

Yep.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:29

And oh my.

Scott Allen: 32:30

Yes, and that's why that old concept from Covey, the emotional bank account, again. What are some of those hacks that will help us? Leaders Day? I was talking to a group of senior leaders this week. Their day is kind of focused on a lot of these fires, challenges, puzzles, problems. It's not easy and there's a lot of good happening in front of them. And if they're missing those opportunities to shine some rays of light back to the weather quote if they're missing those opportunities, that can be problematic. And so what's the hack? You know? I said put a Post-it note on your computer that just says rays R-A-Y-S like rays of light. Get five of them out this week so that it kind of pushes and punches through the clouds and it shifts the weather right. Even on a cloudy day you get some sun for a period of time. That can be awesome, right, so true, so it's.

Scott Allen: 33:30

I think those are two things that come to mind for me. Who are your thinking partners? And then, when you're not getting the results you want or that you think are appropriate in relationship parent, child, subordinate, even your supervisor what potentially do you need to own? There's probably some lessons there for you if you slow down and pay attention and let them in, but that's hard Again, the kind of you're challenging me to be better quote with my son. He is, there's lessons for me there. There's lessons there are. Of course, there's lessons for him as well, but there's lessons for me too.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:09

And that starts with being teachable. It starts with having the humility of saying I don't know it all, I'm not where I need to be, yet you know and, and and saying, hey, I'm in process, yes, yep, and I think that's critical I really do to great leadership.

Scott Allen: 34:22

A hundred percent. A hundred percent, I mean there's a beautiful visual on and that's Wikipedia, just Google cognitive biases and there's this image of like 180 cognitive biases that are recorded and then you could get into logical fallacies, which is another cool conversation. But we suffer from a lot of these cognitive biases that you have to enter all these situations with a level of humility because each of us are limited and, as you said, each of us are in process and it's just again. This is like one little strand. I love this conversation because this is one strand of many we can go down and it's just an it's it's. There's a Wilco.

Scott Allen: 35:06

I love the band Wilco and on their one of their most recent albums they have a song called infinite surprise. I love that phrasing too. Infinite surprise, but that's what I kind of like feel about leadership is it's just like it's. There's an infinite number of surprises that I keep stumbling upon and insights that I keep stumbling upon. But then it always comes back to this master question for me of how do we better prepare people to do this work so that we're more successful? And if you look at the engagement numbers from Gallup et cetera, the game we brought to the table in 1985 and 1999, it's not adequate for 2024. And there's a lot of opportunity there.

Dr. William Attaway: 35:53

If we are teachable and we listen Totally, totally with you, man. You, you are a continual learner and you have. You have illustrated that throughout this conversation, referring to so many different authors, books, resources, and I love that because I take notes of all those and the ones I haven't read. Those are my next to read list. I'm curious is there a book that, if you think about, has made an outsized difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders listening hey, if you haven't read this, put this on your list.

Scott Allen: 36:28

Yes, okay, mindset by Carol Dweck yes, that for Mindset by Carol Dweck. Yes, that for me is again when it comes to problem solving, when it comes to just how we think about parenting, how we think about leadership, how we think about our own thinking. So that book has had a major impact on me. Of course, I said leadership challenge For listeners that want to learn more, it's a great place to start. It's a great place to start. It's a great place to start, and so I really, really enjoy that work. And then I don't know, I mean I think a recent book that has kind of just stuck with me is Think Again by Adam Grant. I really like his work.

Scott Allen: 37:09

I mean a guy who's really rooted in literature but communicating in a way that is very accessible and again, kind of that translator yeah, you'd mention john maxwell and and or jo I would put jaco in this, in this space as well or assign there's. There's really really good learning and lessons from those individuals. For sure For me, I love these individuals who are grounded in research and practice and they're kind of in this really nice middle ground, right. So, yeah, those are three that just are foundational for me, that I kind of keep coming back to. How about you? How about you?

Scott Allen: 37:52

Oh my goodness, Flip the mic, yeah Like what what are one or two for you that like, okay, that they just pop up to the top.

Dr. William Attaway: 37:58

That have transformed how you think about you know to that that I give away probably more than just about any other, to, to other leaders, emerging leaders, people who want to grow. One is called Soundtracks.

Scott Allen: 38:14

Yes, oh, john Acuff, yeah, john Acuff.

Dr. William Attaway: 38:16

Oh, I love that book. Yeah, oh, my goodness. Every time I have read that book, I walk away with something new and different. Yes, and the leaders I share that with we talk about. This is real. This is so practical because we all have the broken soundtracks in our heads 100 yep. And there's a way to fix them. Yes, like you can do that. You absolutely can do that. Yes, that that's one that I think I'll be given away for quite some time yeah, he's great.

Scott Allen: 38:45

He's great, um, and I loved his book finish yes you. For me, all it takes is a goal. I love listening to Acuff's books because he's funny. He is.

Dr. William Attaway: 38:57

You know, so hilarious and a little snarky, which I love yes yes, yes, I'm with you on soundtracks.

Scott Allen: 39:06

That's a good one for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:10

I think the other one is a is a more recent book and it's it's Maxwell's book, high road leadership.

Scott Allen: 39:16

I have not. Okay, so you're the second person in recent times. That good it is, it is.

Intro/Outro: 39:23

And.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:23

I think the reason it is is because of the, the cultural moment that we find ourselves in, you know, in in our culture here in the States and I can't speak to others because this is, this is what we know but in this cultural moment there is so much division, there is so much polarity, and what Maxwell does in that book is he talks about a way to lead in that type of an environment, choosing to take the high road and leading other people to join us. Yeah, and it was just. It was so timely. When I read it and I said okay, and to talk about a perfect time, perfect timing, you know when, the when, when I read that, I thought this is one that I'm going to be handing out as well.

Scott Allen: 40:10

Yeah, I mean we need, we are in need of a new, a new approach that almost somehow floats above and recombines Right, and you know, it's, it's big business to keep us agitated, afraid, mad, angry, confused, curious. It's big business. It's bad leadership, a hundred percent. Yeah, it's a multi-billion dollar business to keep us agitated, frustrated, I mean. And so I mean, just look at, like the polls conversation right now. It's just like this poll, this poll, this poll, big business, right, click, click, click, click, click. And what transcends that? So that we are the United States?

Dr. William Attaway: 41:00

We are.

Scott Allen: 41:01

Americans, we are.

Dr. William Attaway: 41:05

Novel idea the United States.

Scott Allen: 41:08

And like so many other things, what's fascinating is the commonalities are so much greater than the differences for the vast majority. Of course, there's fringe thinking on either side of the pole of the polarity, but oof, yeah, okay, I'll check it out. I will for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 41:26

Yeah, yeah, definitely Definitely worth it, in my opinion. Great, yep, Scott, I could talk to you for another hour. I just love listening to somebody whose passion for leadership is so strong and whose commitment to that abundance mindset is so real. I want to thank you for your generosity today in sharing from your insights and your wisdom that you've gained so far in your journey. They've certainly benefited me and I know our listeners as well.

Scott Allen: 41:55

Well, again, great way to. I mean, when we're recording, we're starting the weekend, so it's a great way. I appreciate the conversation, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you for the good work you're doing. Right? I mean anything we can do to better prepare people to be successful in these roles. When they're raising their hand, stepping into the arena, yes, it's awesome stuff.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:18

I know folks are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you and more about what you're doing. What is the best way for them to do that?

Scott Allen: 42:26

Sure so LinkedIn Scott J Allen on LinkedIn or my website, scottjallennet. So those are two places to catch up, check in and again, love the conversation, always fascinated by it.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:40

Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 43:16

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. If you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. You Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 44:00

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.