Empower Your Team: How To Foster Empathetic Leadership And Collaboration with John Chan

Unlock the secrets to transformative leadership and team collaboration with John Chan, co-founder of 2X Growth Agency. From dropping out of university to building a successful digital marketing agency, John’s journey is packed with lessons in empathetic leadership and personal growth. Discover how he transitioned from a technical expert to a company builder, mastering challenges and evolving his skills from design to analytics.

John shares practical strategies for balancing professional and personal relationships, including working closely with a spouse. Learn how to manage power dynamics, leverage strengths, and foster a cohesive team mindset. Emphasizing continuous learning and mentorship, John highlights the impact of asking the right questions and the guidance of experienced mentors.

Tune in to Catalytic Leadership for actionable insights that will empower your leadership, enhance team collaboration, and navigate the complexities of personal and professional dynamics. Join us to elevate your leadership skills with John Chan’s transformative experiences.

Books Mentioned: 

• Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert T. Kiyosaki
  
  
• The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers by Ben Horowitz
  
  
• Catalytic Leadership: 12 Keys to Becoming an Intentional Leader Who Makes a Difference by Dr. William Attaway

Connect with John Chan:
To connect with John Chan and delve deeper into his insights, visit 2x.agency, connect with him on LinkedIn, or find him on social media by searching JTChan.

Ready to Finish 2024 Strong?
Don’t wait until December to address your challenges. There's a few months left in 2024, now is the time to plan for a strong finish! Book a free strategy call with Dr. William Attaway to create a plan for impactful results. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet John Chan
• 5:20 Learning from Mistakes and Listening Empathetically
• 8:15 Working with a Spouse in a Business
• 9:45 Navigating Difficult Conversations
• 12:16 Investing in Real Estate and Martial Arts
• 29:26 One Big Takeaway: Adding Value to Organizations
• 33:14 How to Stay Connected with John Chan

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

Today, I'm excited to have John Chan on the podcast. John is an entrepreneur renowned for his expertise in web UX design and digital marketing. Born in Hong Kong and raised in Vancouver, John dropped out of university at the age of 19 to start his own web design consultancy. Since then, he's worked for several prestigious companies, including UBC and Basecamp, before co-founding 2X Growth Agency. The agency specializes in helping e-commerce and DTC brands grow and scale with paid ads and ad creative development. Under John's leadership, the agency has managed over $6 million of ad spend and helped generate over $30 million in revenue for their clients. John, I'm excited about this conversation today. Thanks for being here.

John Chan: 0:47

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here as well.

Intro / Outro: 0:52

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway. Your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:05

William Attaway, I would love for you to share a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?

John Chan: 1:19

Sure, I think for me it started somewhat by accident, because when I first started my career I dropped out of school when I was 19. And mostly at the time because I felt disenchanted with school, not really thinking that I was going to be an entrepreneur. But, as you alluded to in the introduction, I started doing web development as a freelancer because that was sort of the skill sets that I picked up in high school. But over the course of the year there was a common thread in the way that I developed my career and as I progressed to become a leader myself, a lot of it came down to figuring out how to solve the next immediate challenge or problem that I was focusing on, and so in my 20s, a large part of it was accumulating different technical skills that was needed at the time between myself and the organization that I was serving. And so if you were to break down the careers, there's basically, I would say, three major arcs right, where the first part of the skill sets that I developed was around doing web design and web development, and that led to a career doing user experience development or user experience research, because I was studying the people that I was serving behind the scenes. But at that point it eventually led to developing skills around analytics and being able to measure the designs that I was improving, and I'll fast forward a bit. But between the initial parts of developing design skills, at some point it led to around realizing that in the way that I shaped the skills that I had, I needed to have better leverage around leading and managing a different team. And so between the design career eventually went started a software company with my wife where we were building productivity software between 2013 or so to the end of 2016.

John Chan: 3:07

And during that phase of the career I wasn't approaching company building from a leadership perspective. I was building it based from a product designer perspective, thinking that I had. You know, it was always like this quote unquote the smartest person in the room. You know, narrative says I wasn't in the room. You know, narrative says I wasn't. But a large part of it was because I was not thinking about what it meant to be a CEO and for a while I shied away from that term because it felt pretentious to be the CEO of a three person company. And so somebody really snapped that out of me, right? And and realize that I was ignoring the job description of what it meant to lead, of what it meant to to set a direction for the company and rallying everybody to get a sense there's a common goal that we're trying to achieve together and so, long story short, the current business that we run right now, as you alluded to, is a marketing agency.

John Chan: 3:59

We're a small team. We're eight people between full timers and part timers and contractors. Small team we're eight people between full timers and part timers and contractors, and a large part of the way I see the work now is it used to be that I think about my role on the team, with all the technical skills that it built up, was around making a direct contribution to the end product For software at the company. At the time, I was making direct changes to features and product.

John Chan: 4:22

Nowadays, when I think about the way that we serve our clients is I think about company building and leadership, as building end products with one step removed, as in, rather than having the strongest technical skills to build the client deliverables directly, which we sometimes still do. A large part of it is about directing the team and enabling them to create end products that we're really proud of, that we know are revenue generating and are helping the clients that we serve. And so when I think about one step removed, it's rather than me working on a direct product, I think about me creating the company culture or creating the training or the coaching or the feedback that leads to the end fulfillment product, and so that one step removed layer of abstraction really helps shape the way that we guide, the way I think about leadership.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:13

You know, when we talked about this previously, you mentioned that in your first company you learned a lot about leadership, by making some mistakes For sure, and I think we can all resonate with that. Would you share one or two of those mistakes that you made, that you realized and how you came to that point of understanding? Oh wow, this is not the way to go.

John Chan: 5:38

For sure. I mean, I kind of alluded to this right. I think a large part of it was identity, and so the punchline to, I think, the major mistake. I think what characterizes a great leader and also the failings of a poor one, is their ability to listen empathetically. And so I would characterize the way that I approached how I ran the previous company was again coming from a background where I developed a lot of strong technical skills.

John Chan: 6:07

I know I was smart and I was good at the work that I did, but if you're in a situation where you're always the one that was driving the right ideas because you're the smartest person in the room, it just means that you're not setting up the right conditions for the company to succeed, because the company is not you as a single person. And so the lesson actually came from, again a chance encounter where I told somebody that I detested calling myself a CEO, and I think there's two parts to this. One was the identity, about recognizing what it meant to be a CEO, what it meant to lead, and it was a very deliberate process in the second company that we built, where I tried to think about what it meant to be a leader and how I would, you know, change the way that I approach certain things. But the way that I really understood what it meant to really listen was with a mentor of mine, and it was kind of a long process, and I think one of the advice that he gave me at the time which seemed counterintuitive at the time was that he basically said, john, you think fast, you talk fast, and what it also meant that is oftentimes you're not actually listening, you're monologuing in your own head as you think you're listening, and so it meant that a lot of times you had reactionary responses to the people that you talk to or the people that are around you, and it also comes as a form of disrespect.

John Chan: 7:24

And so when you realize that you weren't deliberately trying to do that, but it came across in that way, you really had to slow down and you really had to practice a lot of certain things like active listening or being a particular listener. And I think over time, when I realized that when I had certain people that I initially would not have the patience to listen to, but if I waited or if I let sort of the initial sort of reaction subside, more often than not I'll have more useful things, was really just considering all the different perspectives from different backgrounds, different employees, different advisors, different customers, people that are different than you, right um, where they can share their perspective, not necessarily right or wrong, but a way for you to consider how their worldview shapes whatever you're about to say, and I think, think that had really a poignant impact in the way that I think about leadership and made me a lot more effective compared to where I came from.

Dr. William Attaway: 8:30

I really appreciate the transparency that you're showing and sharing that, because I think a lot of leaders really struggle owning a lack of empathetic listening. They say but I'm in the meeting, I'm listening, I'm asking questions, I'm listening, but there's a world of difference between hearing and listening and what you're describing is that deeper level.

John Chan: 8:56

I think I was able to detect the. I was able to detect a monologue, I think that's what it was. It was a sense of self-awareness.

John Chan: 9:10

Somebody reflected on me and I think, in a certain way, I think of it as lucky, right, because when, when people give us certain feedback, especially honest feedback, especially the ones that are hardest to hear, and they're effectively covering our blind spots, right, and and it's often easy for you know if you're judgmental or if you're quick to see analysis or certain type of things, it's easy for you to see those type of things, but it's really hard to see that reflection for yourself, right, and so I think of it as lucky and I think of it as being surrounded by people that have the patience to get through to me, right, and I think part of it is also the fact that I work with my wife, right, so it's like, and I think part of it is also the fact that I work with my wife, right, so it's like you can sort of imagine some of the dynamics of a business relationship where you're mixing business and personal and she does really have a very monumental change in the way that I think and see, the way I approach business dealings or relationships.

Dr. William Attaway: 10:02

Let's talk about that for just a second, because I know a lot of people who, as a business owner, cannot imagine working with their spouse. A lot of people who, as a business owner, cannot imagine working with their spouse. They see that as being just a landmine ridden field. How have you found success in that?

John Chan: 10:16

What are some things you've learned in working with your spouse. It's funny you say that because the punchline is right. The advice is like don't do it. And it's for good reason, right? No, but it's good for good reason, because it's not all bad. The real answer is because it's for good reason, right? No, but it's good for good reason, because you know it's not all bad. The real answer is because it's not all bad, right, but it's also like, incredibly difficult. And so you know, I think, what really worked for us.

John Chan: 10:36

I wouldn't, I wouldn't dare to give advice, because I think when I look at other strong couples, like business owners and entrepreneurs, I think what really makes them work? I think there's sort of like dynamics and styles that you know I can't speak for them, but I think what I can speak for us is that, whether if it's a spouse or any business relationship, really like any business partners, is when things go well, it's generally very easy to be amicable, it's very easy to be in agreement with everybody, right. But it's when things go wrong, right. And how you navigate the power, dynamics and the struggles. And you know, do you blame, do you talk about like it's, it's how you fight that really dictates, um, how strength, the strength of the relationship, and so, um, the hard part is about navigating. That is, again, very challenging because, um, separating and delineating between a business relationship and a personal one is you have to be able to, for example, be mad at the other person for someone that haven't worked and then go home and just be like not bring that home to work, and so if you're able to do that and I think that certainly helps, and I think a large part of us working well together and maturing well together really boils down to fighting well and being able to complement each other's strength, weaknesses, and so I think part of it is also the fact that we did that in our 20s, right, and so we kind of like recognize the sense of progression that we both experienced.

John Chan: 11:57

And so over the years, as you know, when we've had, we've had, you know, long nights and you know, and long fights, right Of course, like any couple would. But it's hard not to be optimistic as the years roll on and that things get progressively better, right, and so having that sort of condition or the environment that forged our relationship in business and in personal lives, I think it just makes us level a lot more and just be optimistic and be hopeful for what we're about to face in the future.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:28

You know, I know you said you're reticent to give advice there, but you just shared some really practical wisdom that I think is going to really benefit people who are listening, and I hope people are paying attention to that, because this is an area that a lot of people struggle with If they're working with a spouse, or even sometimes if they're not. The tension in the environment can create so many relational problems and leaders. Part of our responsibility as leaders is communication. Part of our responsibility is learning to navigate difficult conversations, and are there any relationships that are more important than those at home? We would say that's most important, and yet so often I see leaders dodging those conversations, something they would not do at work. Most of the time. They would have the difficult conversation, but they're dodging the ones at home, and you figured out a way to navigate those waters in such a way that you're able to bring those two worlds together.

John Chan: 13:25

Well done. Well, thank you, and I appreciate that thought I mean again, I think I attribute it to luck in a certain sense because, as with any company or family, it's not just the one in person's individual. I'm here on the mic talking but a lot of it really comes down to the dynamics on both sides. Right, it takes a village to build a company and likewise it takes two to dance, right, and so I think a lot of credit also goes to Jen and the way that she handles me and manages sort of my shortcomings.

John Chan: 13:57

And I think in any relationship I think people are generally hopeful and optimistic about relationships if either side can admit that, if there's times that they're right about a certain thing, that they stand by that and stand by that opinion. But it's more important to be able to know when to back off and say you know what? I made a bad call there, I was wrong about that, I'm sorry for making that call, and I think people that can. That, I think, usually is the hardest part around having these type of conversations and having the self-awareness to recognize that's what's happening. So yeah, I think that was a big part to how we manage our dynamic.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:33

I like that. I think that team mindset, that understanding we're on the same team. It's me and you against the problem, it's not me against you. I think that mindset is so healthy. That's something that my wife and I aspire to as well, and something that I'll often teach clients. It's not me against you, it's me and you against the problem. Now let's tackle it together, because we're on the same team, absolutely.

John Chan: 14:55

I'm really glad you said that because I think again it was one of those things that was a really important early lesson for us as well, because oftentimes when you think about any type of conflict or interpersonal conflict again with your spouse or partner or somebody else, is the fact that if you can both take a step back and extrapolate that and say, hey, what is the thing that we're aligned on, and basically say, hey, is it a common misunderstanding or a common goal that we're trying or a common objective that we're trying to work towards, it helps you find alignment in the midst of that conversation, because it's very easy in a fight to say, oh, you should have done this or I should have done that, or, if it gets into you, versus me, versus us, versus a common sort of a common objective, a common misunderstanding. That's a very important dynamic that that, again, we were. We were lucky that we were. Had that instilled in us early on, so good.

Dr. William Attaway: 17:30

You because you have stepped into a CEO mindset which a lot of people don't make. That turn because you have, it has created more margin in your life and you are investing that margin in a number of different places. I saw that you also invest in real estate, in rental estate right, that's right. You have multiple properties and you are having sold three of those and you are a black belt in Taekwondo.

John Chan: 17:56

That's true.

Dr. William Attaway: 17:58

And I was looking at this. You have represented Team Canada three times internationally. That's right.

John Chan: 18:28

I'm curious now. Right, I spent 12 years competing competitively in Taekwondo and again. In each one of those things, the common thread behind how to progress and do well in any particular field that you get into is having really good mentors and having really good guiding posts so that you can benchmark. What is it that you're trying to do? And um, not making the same mistakes that someone else may have? And so, in in martial arts, um, the, the school that I originally started with, that, my, my parents placed me in um. You know they're good people, but frankly, it wasn't a very good school for competitive environments. And so what? What it meant was that?

John Chan: 19:06

Uh, when I first started competing um, one of the things that I was again lucky to come upon was we had a national tournament locally, so we didn't have to travel very far. It was juniors, this was 2001,. Right, and that was my first foray into competitive sports, because there was a national tournament happening in the hometown. It meant that the different schools in the local regions provided BC team training, meaning that I got exposure to different styles of training from other schools, and what that allowed me to do was gain the visibility of the conditions and environments that I was in and it showed me the very differences of having good instruction or versus one that was not so great. And so it meant that whenever I get into any new endeavors right and so, you know, fast forward a few years when I got into real estate, it wasn't a complete deliberate sort of like intent to do. It was something that I, you know, when I go back to my earlier thought about dropping out of school, one of the catalysts for recognizing that school wasn't really necessarily the right environment for me was I read his book Rich Dad, poor Dad, and in that book, you know, it talks about minding your own business and it talks about through in the narratives around one about finding great mentors, but also it does talk a lot about real estate.

John Chan: 20:28

And so while I was competing and I was training, it just kind of opened up my eyes and I started asking people around me and realizing that, oh, wait, a second, there are people that are practicing what the book was preaching and it led to conversations around oh hey, you run a business right. For example, a teammate of mine is like hey, what is that like? And so that sort of curiosity and those early questions led into one thing led to another next thing. You know, I found myself being brought around to networking events or being exposed to different projects and deals that they're working on, and one of those questions eventually led to okay, that's interesting, well, how do I buy my own real estate property?

John Chan: 21:03

And then you know, and the next thing I got, I got introduced to investors. A lot of it was just early exposure and the curiosity and in most cases, especially people that have hard-earned experiences, and if you ask them a very direct or deliberate question, most people are really more than happy to help, more than happy to share, because everyone wants to share that sort of experience with somebody, especially if they know they can help you shortcut a lot of the tough experiences that they had to go through. And so you know, between the three different fields, a lot of it was about paying attention to people that are good around me in those environment-respective fields, asking direct questions and then be exposed to it and recognizing that if you do that enough times, you'll get to progress in each of those fields very quickly.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:51

You know, I think that's so brilliant Asking the questions, seeking out the counsel, seeking out the mentors. This is what differentiates, I believe, high performance leaders, because they're not ashamed to admit what they don't know and they are constantly asking questions. You will never get the right answers unless you ask the right questions. This is why I've hired coaches for so many years who helped me to see what I can't see, because you can't see the whole picture when you're in the frame, but by having the right questions you can shortcut right. You can't avoid some of those ditches that you would drive into otherwise and you can go farther than you would have gone on your own and you can get there faster. And I think that is so incredibly intelligent and what great counsel for everybody listening. If you think you know it all and you don't need to ask for advice, then you do not have a teachable spirit, and I think that is one of the key components of what it means to truly be catalytic as a leader, and that's what I see in you, john.

John Chan: 22:51

Thank you. And again, I was still attributed to luck, right. I mean, there's definitely certain aspects of my upbringing where it was a very deliberate choice, no doubt about it, but I think a lot of it really comes down to, again, chance encounters early on. You know, I think I had just really young, great, great model, great role models when I was young, right, and and again being in a martial arts environment where there's naturally, uh, a natural progression in in the way that you develop a particular skill, right. It's hard to see that sort of translation in marketing or in business. There's no clear delineation between, you know, level one to level 10, right, or you know, in the martial arts environment, a white belt to a black belt, um, but it just meant that I was looking for that invisible progression. But similarly, again, that being in that initial school and that environment for such a long time and recognizing that it wasn't really the right or best environment for me to take the sport seriously, that opened my eyes up about the importance of not just any instruction but good instruction, because it would be the difference between being led astray versus the difference between, you know, being world class, right, and again, that exposure was, you know again. Very lucky. Because if I, if I looked at the fact that you know there was peers in you know back in my upbringing where they didn't necessarily had, the fact that you know there was peers in you know back in my upbringing where they didn't necessarily had the same opportunity, even though they had the same chances, it just meant that when I did have the opportunities in front of me, I just, metaphorically, I seized it, I really went after it because I knew it was hard to come by.

John Chan: 24:26

And I think I approach a lot of our work today with a similar mindset, because when I think about different brands or clients that work with us or choose to work with us, it's a privilege, in a sense right, because part of the initial motivation to start the agency was a recognition that when we built the first company that we felt that we didn't have, it turns out we were actually technically very strong or strong enough to build, you know, these businesses, but we couldn't commercialize the first business. So we felt that we had a skill that was lacking. And so part of the motivation to run the agency was because agencies are a great environment for exposure to a lot of different business models. It's a lot of exposure to a lot of the patterns about different organizations and it just allowed us to sample culture and meant that we met other great leaders for me to model off from, and so I don't take that for granted and again I think of it as luck that we get to be in the work that we get to do today.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:18

You know, the agency world is a fantastic incubator for so many different ideas and insight into so many different areas. But it starts with that teachable spirit and I'm going to push back a little bit and areas. But it starts with that teachable spirit and I'm going to push back a little bit and I'm going to say I think you have made that choice in so many areas of your life. You have made that choice intentionally to be teachable, to learn, to grow. And so here's my question coming off of that, how are you these days staying on top of your game? How are you leveling up your leadership skills with what your team is going to need you to have a year, three years, five years from now, of course?

John Chan: 25:55

I mean the short answer and the punchline is really boiling down to keeping your eyes open for what the I'll put it this way I think one way to think about being a great autodidact or being able to teach yourselves in any particular field, whether if it's leadership or technical skills is being able to diagnose what your deficiencies and blind spots are, because, just like a doctor, when you watch someone diagnose an underlying condition, if you don't have a lot to go by, the types of options that are available to you to cure somebody is endless. You could try all kinds of different things that would lead to the wrong answer, and so I think likewise, I think, a lot of people in this world today, especially with the fact that we're on the internet, there's so many different things you could learn, but being able to be selective about what you should learn right now and what is specific to the deficiencies that you have, I think is paramount. And so, from a soft skill or leadership position, when I think about again going back to recognizing that I lacked the skills of what it meant to be a great leader, meant that I paid attention to what a lot of other great leaders looked like Right, and so sometimes it's about direct reading something, or it could other just be observing people that you really respected and you look at how they conduct themselves, how they handle and manage different difficult decisions. You know you can even see a TV show what have you. But the point is just being observant about the way that people conduct themselves as a way to model after. I think that's a really important thing. But likewise, when you think about what you know, there's a lot of facets to leadership, right? Some people are about you know, hr oriented. Other people are people oriented, and what have you?

John Chan: 27:36

I think in my case, recognizing your own strengths and weaknesses of is a very important characteristic, and also being able to recognize a strike weaknesses for other people. And so in my environment, because I've always been very good at learning, what it meant was that I had a certain knack or skill around teaching, and it's not about necessarily being advised, giving good advice or what have you A lot of. It is about breaking down the thought processes that I have and be able to articulate it in a way that somebody else can understand so that they can reproduce the same result. And so, in an agency environment, what it often meant was that if we're learning a new platform or a new product or new tool, especially in the marketing world where everything changes every few years. Right, being able to pay attention to and separate all the noise and be able to figure out which parts are important signals or important to dissect was an important skill, and be able to learn that very quickly and you'll be able to pass information on to the rest of the team so that everybody else pays attention.

John Chan: 28:38

I think that's something that I inherently have as a strength, and it meant that people look to me in their own lives, as they're on their team and they're trying to progress in their own careers. It's like they could have chose to work with anybody, but why are they working with you? And if they didn't have a sense of oh, I would do well working with you. Because I can learn X, y, z skills, because you're able to articulate it in a way that's hard for me to get from somebody else, or that I was given opportunities that's hard for somebody else. Forget about being a leader. Why should anyone follow you in any venture that you get into? Why take all the risks and what have you? And being able to see that from the other side, I think really helps, and so recognizing my own strength as a coach or teacher and being able to really stand by that and play that out, I think is a really important part.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:29

I agree. Is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey, something that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening? If you haven't read this, you really need to take a look, for leadership.

John Chan: 29:40

I have a hard time pointing to a specific book. I think a lot of it really boils down to observing. Actually, I do have one now that I come to think of it the Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, I think was a really important book. Anecdote or story that was told about basically how to take advice from other people, including knowing when to reject it. I won't give away the whole narrative but there's a lot to decipher.

John Chan: 30:22

But one part was that there was a particular instance where there's a legendary executive coach that was basically strong background, strong reputation, but there was a very difficult situation that the ceo found themselves into the story, right and uh, and because you're the only person that have the full context of the situation, knowing when to follow advice is really important, but knowing when to reject a particular advice is also really important and it's a really tough balance to follow because how do you know that you're rejecting a certain advice because you're being stubborn versus you have conviction that you do recognize that, based on the different advice really great advice from multiple people that you've heard, that the call that you have to make and be able to live with that, I think it articulated what it really meant internally for a lot of the tough decisions and struggles that you have to go through, and I think that really stayed with me. So the Hard Thing About Hard Things is, I think, a really good book about leadership.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:20

I haven't read that, but it sounds absolutely fascinating. I'm adding that to my to-read list. Thank you for that. You know, often people walk away from an episode like this, a conversation like this, john, with with one big idea, one big takeaway. If you got to decide what you want that one big takeaway to be for people to walk away with sure, what would that, I think, for me?

John Chan: 31:42

I think one of the advice I try to follow and I try to think about, you know today, and I think what I made a right call on, is that I focused a lot of the skills that I developed over the years around how to add more value to whatever organization that I bring, and I think it's a very generic way to think about it, right?

John Chan: 31:59

But it's like if I think about what are the skills required to take a company from zero to a million, or how do you join an organization and help it grow from one million to five, it's like when you have the audacity and you really take it to heart, it's really hard to create those conditions and environment and not be able to make 100K for yourself or make 200K for yourself.

John Chan: 32:21

It's like when you add value to an organization, it's really hard not to do well for yourself, and I really try to stick with that, and I think that's part of the reason why we're running Etsy, where our reason for that is to help the companies that we serve grow, and so I really try to stick by that and, similarly, it was useful advice early on in my career, as it's good advice for me right now. It's just that the goalpost moves right, because at some point it was about building technical skills and then that transition to building soft skills, whether if it's leadership and having a greater leverage with being able to have a larger impact, or the fact that a lot, of, a lot of efforts is is. Is it now a team effort? But I've always looked at that as guiding, as a guiding compass of what to do next and what kind of skills I need to develop and be able to simplify. So I think that would be the thing that we're trying to leave people with how do you join?

Dr. William Attaway: 33:11

how do that, I would try to leave people with. How do you provide value and help to grow the value of organization that you bring? What great advice. I know people are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn from you, john, for sure I mean.

John Chan: 33:19

I always have to connect with different people. It doesn't have to be something you learn from, but you can find me on Twitter and you can find me on LinkedIn. Our agency is 2x. agency. That's the URL, and if you want to find me on social, it's JTCchan. So I'm pretty sure the links are provided in show notes.

Dr. William Attaway: 33:39

Outstanding, John. I so appreciate your time and your authenticity today and sharing so much from what you've learned so far in your journey. Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:26

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you Just go to catalytic leadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.