Uncommon Greatness: Transformative Leadership Insights with Chick-fil-A's Mark Miller

Embark on a transformational journey with Dr. William Attaway and his esteemed guest, Chick-fil-A's very own Mark Miller. Drawing from his ascension from an hourly worker to a leadership luminary, Mark unveils the blueprint for "Uncommon Greatness" in our latest episode. His insights on cultivating a future vision, empowering others, and the imperative of a leader's character as a bulwark of influence offer a profound reflection on the soul of true leadership. Witness how Mark's personal evolution mirrors the timeless ethos of service, teaching us that one's vocation transcends retirement and is a life's calling.

Discover the five bedrock challenges that every leader faces, as detailed by Mark Miller. Together, we navigate the dichotomy of driving results while fostering relationships, understanding that the heart of leadership lies in the delicate equilibrium between the two. This conversation illuminates the reasons why stellar performers may choose to stay or seek new horizons, and the pivotal role that genuine, character-driven leadership plays in their decision-making process. Glean wisdom on keeping your team invigorated and delve into the power of a servant leader's heart to mold an environment where talent flourishes and thrives.

Finally, step into the transformative realm of leadership through the lens of adding value and confronting ego. Learn how the shift from an 'I' to a 'we' mentality can revitalize your leadership approach and revolutionize team dynamics. We share anecdotes and strategies for cultivating a culture of curiosity and fostering a landscape where questions are as valuable as answers. Embrace the commitment to lifelong learning as a vehicle for expanding your influence, courageously steering your team toward the horizon of untapped possibilities. Join us for this enlightening session that promises not only to reshape your leadership approach but to amplify the legacy you leave behind.

Stay Connected with Mark Miller:

• Phone: 678-612-8441
• Email: mark@leadeveryday.com
• Website: https://leadeveryday.com/

Elevate Your Leadership to Extraordinary Heights with Mark Miller's Latest Book: Uncommon Greatness

Apply now to be a part of the High Capacity Leaders mastermind in West Palm Beach, Florida on November 9-10, 2026. Go to https://westpalm.highcapacityleaders.org/ for more information.

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Transcript

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Podcast Intro 1:02

Welcome to catalytic leadership , the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive . Here is your host , author and leadership and executive coach , dr William Attaway .

Dr. William Attaway 1:19

Hey

Introduction

Dr. William Attaway 1:20

there , catalytic leaders . Welcome back to another episode of the catalytic leadership podcast . I'm your host , Dr William Attaway , and today I am thrilled to share an insightful conversation with a true leader in the field , Mark Miller . For those of you who may not be familiar , Mark's journey at Chick-fil-A began over 40 years ago , starting as an hourly team member and rising to be a key figure in leadership development . He's the author of several bestselling books , including the Secret of Teams and Chestnut Checkers . His latest book , Uncommon Greatness , is already making waves in the leadership world .

Dr. William Attaway 1:59

In today's episode , Mark and I delve into the core principles of uncommon leadership , focusing on topics like see in the future , engaging and developing others and the importance of lifelong learning . One topic that particularly resonated with me was Mark's discussion on cultivating a leader's heart , where he shared how your character as a leader determines 90% of your impact . So get ready to dive deep into the world of leadership with us . Whether you're a seasoned executive or just starting out on your leadership journey , I know you'll find value in Mark's insights and experiences . Without further ado , here's my interview with Mark Miller . Mark , I'm so glad that you are here . It is just an honor to be with you today , and we're talking about your new book . Before we jump into that , a lot of folks listening may not know who you are . I'd love for you to share a little bit of your story with our listeners , particularly around your journey and your development as a leader .

Mark Miller 3:03

How did you get- . Okay , yeah , well , goodness gracious

From Selling Chicken to Chick-fil-A Corporate Leadership

Mark Miller 3:07

, it's a long , long story because I'm an old man , but I think the short version is that I started selling chicken , I tell folks , about 100 years ago . It wasn't quite that long ago , but in the 70s I got a job working at a local Chick-fil-A restaurant and I was awful in the restaurant . Again , we won't get into any of those details , it's still too soon to talk about

The Lifelong Learning Journey of a Leader

Mark Miller 3:30

it . But I made a strategic career decision and I'm quick to say this is not advice to any of your listeners but I quit . Okay , here was my thought process . Now , again , I chalked this up to the mind of a child . This was a long , long time ago , but I said it would be better for me to leave than have to spend the rest of my life explaining why I got fired from Chick-fil-A . I knew that that would not be a good bullet point on my resume and so I went and got another job . About six months later I got laid off from that job and I thought shoot , I need a job and I can't work in the restaurants for Chick-fil-A . Maybe I could work at the corporate headquarters , which of course makes no sense in any universe . But again , mind of a child . So I went in and introduced myself to the receptionist and said I'd like a job working in your warehouse . Wow , and just a few minutes she said have a seat . I thought good sign she didn't call security . She told me to have a seat and just a few minutes later Truett Cathy , the founder of Chick-fil-A , came , took me into his office to conduct this interview .

Mark Miller 4:38

Now that may not make sense to your listeners if they know who Truett Cathy was . He was the founder of Chick-fil-A . He invented the chicken sandwich . It didn't make sense to me as a kid . I'm thinking he's the CEO . Why is he talking to me ? And I didn't learn that day . But I later learned the reason he was conducting the interview is he only had 15 corporate employees . Wow , and I was interviewing to be number 16 . So if your team's that small , it makes a little more sense for the head man or the head woman to kind of make those decisions . And I tell people to this day . I fully believe that it was a combination of God's grace and lack of discernment on Truett's part .

Mark Miller 5:19

He gave me that job working in the warehouse and I also got to work in the mailroom and that was 45 years ago , my good , and so again did a lot of things while I was there . I was introduced by a colleague not too long ago that Mark is a guy who can't hold down a job because I moved from place to place . I got to start things and I don't think it had much to do with my talent , I think it was more of a let the kid do it , let the kid do it . I mean , I started our corporate communications group , I started our quality and customer satisfaction group , so forth and so on . Lead in field operations led our training group for about a decade , started the leadership development practice within the organization , so forth , so on .

Mark Miller 6:02

And so I left Chick-fil-A about seven months ago , took an early retirement . I asked them I said how long do you have to stay to get a full retirement ? But nonetheless , that was a technicality . As an officer I had mandatory retirement on the horizon and I left before that . So it got lumped into a bucket called an early retirement .

Mark Miller 6:27

And yeah , so I have co-founded an organization , really continuing to do what I've been doing for decades and that's trying to serve leaders and that's called lead . Every day and I'm writing and speaking and doing podcast and training and again just trying to do what I think I'm supposed to do , and here's my last thought on that . A lot of people have challenged me that I'm not doing retirement correctly . There's some deeply held views I have discovered about what retirement is supposed to look like , and I want to honor those people and I'm not assuming they have to see it the way I do , but I believe that you can retire from a job that you cannot retire from a calling , and my calling is to serve leaders , and so the fact I don't work at Chick-fil-A anymore is actually irrelevant as it relates to my calling . My challenge is how do I serve leaders in my second half , and that's what I'm working on right now . I love that .

Dr. William Attaway 7:30

I love that distinction you can retire from a job and not from a calling . I think that's so brilliant . And I talk to a lot of leaders who , as they're entering after what Bob Buford calls half time , they're entering the second half and they're trying to think what's this going to look like ? And they're not enamored with this idea of just sitting around . They're not enamored with this idea of just , oh just , go play golf every day . That doesn't draw them in because that's not their calling .

Mark Miller 7:58

I love that , and so my plan in the second half is just to run up the score , right ? Isn't that what you want to do in the second half ? Absolutely .

Podcast Intro 8:05

Absolutely .

Dr. William Attaway 8:07

That's what Bob Buford of Crimson Tide does .

Mark Miller 8:10

Yeah , so that's a 45-year story encapsulated pretty quickly there . A lot of great stuff has happened . I've learned a lot over the years . It's been fantastic .

Choosing Uncommon Greatness: The Path to Lasting Leadership Impact

Dr. William Attaway 8:22

You know , one of the things I love about Jim Mark is that not only have you learned a lot , which is obvious from anybody who listens to or reads anything you've written , but you are constantly sharing what you learn , you are a conduit of that learning so that other people can benefit from it . And your new book is really , I think , your best so far of all the ones I've read . It's called Uncommon Greatness , and I'm going to recommend that our listeners pick this up . This is worth your time . I don't recommend a ton of books . This one is worth your time . Thank you . As I was reading through this , I'll tell you you captured me from the beginning , and that's not always something every book does . Let's just be honest . When you talked about this idea of the Latin word quantivis Right , this idea of a word that means as great as you choose or as great as you determine , man , I love that Like . From the beginning I was like wow what does it mean to ?

Dr. William Attaway 9:25

choose greatness . What does it mean to choose an uncommon greatness ?

Mark Miller 9:30

Yeah , well , yeah , I'm glad . I'm glad you like that . I was torn and I referenced this in the book . I wish that were the name of the book , but of course the publisher would go there's no way you can call a book something people can't pronounce and don't know what it means . They were probably right , but that is what the book is about , and I think that virtually every leader at some level is chasing greatness . I really think they are .

Mark Miller 10:01

But the premise of the book is there are two forms of greatness common or typical greatness and uncommon greatness . And if you're just chasing the traditional run of the mill brand of greatness , it's about the achiever , it's about the recognition that you will receive . It's actually not something that's going to last and it's a really shallow victory . And I know so many leaders that have chased it , caught it and go uh-oh , this is not what I thought it was going to be . But uncommon greatness shifts the focus . It's on helping others achieve greatness . It may or may not be recognized . It's something that's very satisfying , very fulfilling and lasts much longer than those fleeting accolades .

Mark Miller 11:02

And so we set that up and say keep chasing greatness , because you've got to be great at what you do as a prerequisite , not that it has to be literally sequential , but you can't pursue uncommon greatness if you have a laxadaisical or if you have a mediocre intent as it relates to your work . It gives you the moral authority to help others pursue greatness if you are pursuing excellence . And so it's not that they're mutually exclusive , it's just there's a higher bar . And so once we try to make the case for that , you have to choose , and the world is pushing you toward common greatness , because the world doesn't really understand uncommon greatness . But once you get the concept , then the first question virtually every leader asks is yes , but how ? That sounds fantastic , but how do I do it ? And then the balance of the book is what we call the fundamentals of uncommon leadership . We think uncommon leadership is the path to uncommon greatness .

Mastering the Essentials of Exceptional Leadership

Dr. William Attaway 12:14

So walk us through those fundamentals . There are five of them that you list in the book . Walk us through those just in a brief way .

Mark Miller 12:20

Yeah , I'll hit them . I'll hit them real quick for you . The first is to see the future . Leadership always begins with a picture of a future . If you're not trying to help people accomplish something , achieve something , become something , you're actually not leading . And we could debate what you're doing . You might be managing , you might not be doing anything of value right , you might be an individual contributor with a leadership title and there is some of that out there but you're actually you're trying to create and sustain progress . You're trying to accomplish something . I mean , if you're leading people , the assumption is those people have come together to accomplish something and the leaders are the ones that help them . See that it's got to be compelling so that people actually want to go there and they want to go with you there . So see the future . Second fundamental is engage and develop others . It's a pretty big idea , at least the way we interpret it . Engagement has two parts . The first is who do you select and who do you recruit and who do you invite to be on your team ? And then the other . As important as that facet is , the more challenging , or I should say the ongoing challenge with engagement is creating the context in which people will invest themselves fully in the work .

Mark Miller 13:44

Ken Blanchard and I partnered on a book 25 years ago . It's my first book and it was one he suggested that we write . That's another story for another day . But some of your listeners don't know Ken , but 25 years ago he had three books on the best seller list at one time and I'm not sure anybody's ever done that . He was kind of the management and leadership thinker of maybe the last 30 years Very prolific and so Ken approached me about doing that first book , and when we talked about engage and develop others , he said it's really the leadership challenge that some leaders don't fully appreciate is that when people join your team or join your organization on day one , they're fully engaged . He said the trick and the challenge is how engaged are they six months later , six years later , 16 years later ? And leaders are responsible for the engagement of their people . So the second fundamental is engage and develop others . The third is to reinvent continuously . Now , I know this sounds like a buzzword from the 80s . For our more mature listeners they would probably agree with that . I know I was there in the 80s Me too . But we think it's a great , great and it's a really powerful concept because leaders fundamentally understand that progress is always preceded by change .

Mark Miller 15:13

I meet far too many leaders who think change is a burden , change is an obstacle , change is a nuisance . It's like no , no , no , no , no . Change is your job . Change in service of a preferred future is your job ? Yes , and so we think it's . It's just essential . I will say a quick word about that , because a lot of people think well , that's just too big to get my head around it .

Mark Miller 15:36

We ask leaders to think in three domains , and you could make a longer list , but this will , this will get you most of the way there yourself . What do you need to reinvent about you , systems and work processes ? Because if you do what you've always done , you'll probably get what you always got , or less , right , because the half life of ideas is getting shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter . And so I meet too many leaders that they're hoping that something's going to happen , and hope is a good thing , but hope is not a strategy . No , I'm asking them what are you going to do if you want a different outcome ? Yeah , so self systems , and then structure , and structure is not always the problem , but structure is supposed to make it easy or to do the work . And if it's really hard to do the work , you at least need to take a look at the structure and there any number of smarter people than me that have actually tried to put numbers on it , and I hesitate to do that because every organization is unique , but there's some . There's some . Some of the most famous thought leaders would say every 35% in growth , you need a fundamentally different structure , and I know , I know organizations that have tried to double and triple their size with the same structure and it's it's the shoes just too small . It doesn't enable that's good , this excess . So see the future , engage and develop others , reinvent continuously .

Mark Miller 17:10

Value , results and relationships is the fourth fundamental , and I would argue it's the most challenging of them all , because there's tension there , yes , and because most leaders have a bias .

Mark Miller 17:25

They're either more results oriented or they're more relationship oriented , and I'm not suggesting that you should try and change yourself , but I'm suggesting that the best leaders find ways to compensate , yes , for that which they don't do , naturally . Well , there's tremendous power If you can figure out . It's what Jim Collins calls the genius of the end , when you take two things that from time to time may actually be in conflict and you pursue them , both tremendous benefits to the organization . And then , fifth and finally , is embody a leader's heart , and we find far too many men and women who who struggle to get people to follow them , regardless of their skills . Well , that's because if your heart's not right , nobody cares about your skills . That's so true . If your heart's not right , nobody cares about your skills . And so , yeah , we think there's some heart habits that leaders need to cultivate so that you'll become a leader that people want to follow . And so that's that fifth fundamental .

Dr. William Attaway 18:34

You know that last one really resonated deeply with me , but really the last two , the relationship and results , but then the heart of the leader , because I see so often and I'm sure you see this as well People don't leave jobs typically , they leave leaders .

Mark Miller 18:49

Yes , yes , I think there's data on that . It's been constant for 40 years . It's like they leave their supervisor , they leave their immediate leader , not just leaders generically . If they're not well led , they become a flight risk . Now , and here's one more little sidebar we use some terminology .

Mark Miller 19:12

We talk about top talent and typical talent . And top talent are your A players , and we did some research a few years ago on how to attract more of those people . And then typical talent are kind of your B players . We don't want to talk about C and D players . You know who they are and you know you need to do something about them . We think every organization gets to decide how many A players do you want ? How many A players do you want ? And we actually have been thinking , writing and researching on how to get more of those people .

Mark Miller 19:44

But the reason I mention it here is A players are a greater flight risk when they're not well led . Because you might say , well , doesn't everybody want to be well led ? Well , sure , but for A players it's a condition of employment , because A players can work anywhere . Yeah , that's your typical talent . They're just going to sit around the dinner table and belly ache and complain about you . My leader's awful , but they're going to keep coming to work A players they really do . That's their first expectation is that they would be well led . Wow , if you're having trouble keeping A players .

Mark Miller 20:23

That's A place to look . Are they being well ?

Dr. William Attaway 20:26

led . I love what you said there that every business , every organization gets to choose how many A players they're going to have . It's a choice . Going back to our first comment you get to choose , determine your level of greatness . I think a lot of people will , or a lot of leaders who are not the uncommonly great leaders will blame and say oh , I've only had a better team .

Dr. William Attaway 20:51

I've only had better customers , only the economy was better . If only it wasn't an election year , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . It's always some other reason why they can't achieve high performance . But what you're saying and I love this throughout the book is that these things are a choice . They are inside of your locus of control .

Mark Miller 21:09

Doesn't mean they're easy . I mean Chick-fil-A has dealt with the talent shortage , along with everybody else . I'm not saying it's easy , but when you well , first of all , when I say you have a choice , most organizations I would say I pick a number , I don't have any research on this , but 90% of the people aren't even consciously recruiting a talent . Wow , they just they're recruiting people and every now and then a player show up , oh my goodness . But I would argue , and I think our research substantiates , that if you create the right value proposition , you can actually attract a players If you proactively and systematically tell that story and promote what you're offering .

Mark Miller 22:02

I mean , I was with a group last week and it happens almost all the time , Any time I'm asked to talk about talent . This is kind of we're encapsulating what that would be about . And this was an association of organizations and the guy who put the thing together he said you know , you really hit on their problem today . And I said well , what's that ? And they are dying as an industry because they can't get help . And I said , okay . And he said and they have a value proposition that top talent is not interested in and they continue to offer the same things that don't attract top talent . In fact , their value proposition is so out of touch they're not attracting anybody . So that's what I mean it's a choice . I mean you don't get to choose who walks in your door , but you get to choose who you go after , and most organizations are not targeting top talent .

Dr. William Attaway 22:59

And , like you mentioned earlier , if you keep doing what you've always done , you're going to get the same results , or worse or worse . Wow .

Mark Miller 23:07

That's so good . Hey , one more thing I'll say , just to affirm what you just said . One of our heart habits is to accept responsibility . We say the best leaders don't place blame . Now , they're quick to give credit . But when things go wrong on their watch , they own it . They own it .

Dr. William Attaway 23:25

I think that's a challenge for a lot of leaders and I think ego and pride can tend to rear their heads . They push back , they step away from that and they want to blame .

Mark Miller 23:40

Well , obvious . I mean , I know you spend a lot of time with leaders , so your intuition is informed by your experience . But you're right on . We just did for this book . We ended up surveying about over 4,000 leaders in six countries . The number one impediment

Choosing Growth: Adding Value to Transform Leadership

Mark Miller 25:15

when you ask people what barriers or obstacles prevent your leader from being more effective Number one ego . Wow , Wow . And that's at all levels the front line supervisors saying it about their manager , their manager saying it about their director , their director saying it about their VP , and their VP's are saying it about their CEOs . So again , your intuition is absolutely correct . The data supports that's a huge problem . So again , to me it's a short step to say ego is a problem of the heart . It's not a skill , it's not a competency issue , it's a hard issue .

Dr. William Attaway 25:59

So how do you address that ? If you see this in the organization and if you think , wow , is that a problem that I've got ? And that awareness begins to perhaps bubble up just a little higher than it has , what's the first step somebody can take ?

Mark Miller 26:15

Well , I might ought to flip that to you , because you coach executives for a living , so let me give you an answer . You can tell me if I'm close here . Well , it begins with the subtext that we've referenced several times you got to choose to change your heart . Yes , nobody's going to change your heart , yes , and so I love your point about there needs to be a growing awareness that there's an issue or there is an opportunity , because if somebody is oblivious , then you're going to get more of the same , and so I think it takes courage from a leader to have a hard conversation with another leader , whether it's a peer , whether it's your boss , whether it's somebody who reports to you in the organizational structure , in the hierarchy , and say hey , I think this is hurting you . I mean , I had a leader , and we're not going to debate whether my ego was a problem or not because I don't want to go there . It's too soon again .

Mark Miller 27:20

No , but about 40 years ago I got some coaching . This is why I was just a kid and I had a senior leader say hey , I want to give you some feedback . This is over 40 years ago , maybe . Yeah , a long time ago . And he said I've noticed you use the word I a lot . He said I don't think you should do that . He said you need to think about we . Wow , and I went well , thanks , I didn't even know . Now , was that a reflection of the fact I was a kid and I didn't know any better ? Was it pride ? Was it ego ? Was it ?

Mark Miller 27:56

I don't know what it was , but I don't use the word I as often , and I've not for 40 years because a leader said to me I mean , it was a low risk conversation for a senior leader to talk to a kid , but hey , I've noticed something about you and you probably need to work on that . What a gift . I thought it was a gift . I still remember the conversation . I went , never thought about that , I was like , thank you , I won't . Yeah , I'll stop doing that . But the first step people have to have the awareness . You just mentioned that . And then we've also said if I have the awareness of an issue or an opportunity or a problem or a challenge , I still have to decide what I'm going to do . So I think there's that volitional will . They've got to decide . Ok , I want to work on this . And then my favorite tactic that I encourage leaders and it will help with several of the heart habits is to try and add value to every person you encounter .

Mark Miller 29:01

Now there are skeptics in your audience that would say whoa , whoa , whoa . That's impossible . I said , ok , well , time out , let's roll the tape back . I want you to listen to what I said Try to add value . And if I'm trying to add value to someone else , immediately my focus shifts from me to them . Yeah , now I may or may not be able to add value , but it's the trying that transforms you .

Mark Miller 29:26

It's not your batting average , and I think you can actually cultivate the ability to think others first , which is one of our heart habits . But it also helps with things like ego . That's so good , and so I would encourage your listeners because people look at me like I've lost my mind , which is well documented that I've lost my mind . But I challenged a group last week and I would challenge your listeners Try that for 24 hours . I think it could change your life in 24 hours , and then most people who'll do it for 24 hours they'll try a second day and a third day and at some point it'll . It'll become a lifestyle choice , because you will gain so much from attempting to add value to others . It'll change your heart and if you change your heart , you can change your leadership . Oh , so good .

Dr. William Attaway 30:22

You know , one of the things that I flagged in this book is a list , and this is . This is toward the end . When you're talking about embodying

Heart-Centered Leadership: Adding Value Without Cost

Dr. William Attaway 30:29

a leader's heart , how do you add value to someone else ? And you give a list of a whole lot of ways that people can add value right , encourage them , recognize them , coach them , correct them , empathize with their situation , ask their opinion . You know the thing that stands out about everything on this list it doesn't cost anything . That's correct .

Mark Miller 30:51

That's correct . Yeah , and I did an activity recently with an organization and I had a bunch of leaders In a room and I asked them to make a list and I was . I don't know . I can't even describe the emotions that I felt when they really couldn't do it . I ended up having to give them that list . People don't think consciously in my opinion . That was . That was one sample , but it happened last week , so it's kind of top of mind . Yeah , it's like there were . I gave them 15 minutes and one one group said well , you've got four . I went there are so many ways . So I think I encourage people to make their own list and say how could you Again and you've read part of that list I would go all the way down . If you're a person of faith , you can offer a silent prayer on their behalf . I mean you . There are so many ways that you can attempt to add value to another human being , but you got to decide you want to do that .

Dr. William Attaway 31:49

You know one of the quotes I share all the time that I've never forgotten since I first heard it was from Truett Cathy and it's the one you know . You want to know how to know if somebody needs encouragement , that's right . If you're breathing right If they're breathing . I tell leaders that all the time , and and I tell them that this doesn't cost you a thing , but this is something people remember . They may remember a lot of what you say . They're not going to forget how you made them feel . Like Maya Angelou said Absolutely .

Mark Miller 32:17

Absolutely . Yeah , leaders' hearts really big . Let me just maybe put an exclamation point on that . Our picture of leadership which I reveal in the book and this has been true at Chick-fil-A for 25 years it's an iceberg and about 10% is above the waterline and about 90% is below and it all matters . It's not an iceberg if you only have part of it , but the the first four fundamentals are above the waterline . They're about the skills of the leader .

Mark Miller 32:50

Yeah , and this leader's heart is the 90% below , and I actually believe 90% of your impact as a leader will be determined by your heart , and I shared that recently and I was on a podcast and my host says , well , it's not quite 90 . And I said , well , that's kind of a figure of speech . I mean it's , it's conceptual . And he said , well , it's actually 77% because we researched it . And when you ask people to rate all these different attributes of leadership , the 77 , 77% of their efficacy is determined by their character is the way he said it , and so I might should quit saying 90% and say 77% , if you're , if you're interested in the data . It just matters so much , and far too many leaders have not given sufficient attention and care to their heart .

Dr. William Attaway 33:50

And you can't outskill your character Right .

Mark Miller 33:54

Right , right . And I know leaders that have skills and people won't follow them and they wonder why ? Because people don't trust your heart . They think you're more of a self serving leader than a serving leader .

Dr. William Attaway 34:09

That's good . Yeah , another , another piece that I flagged you talked about the when you're talking about the vision , seeing the unseen and how a leader that's . That's their role . This is one of the fundamentals . The leaders should not feel the pressure to have all the answers . Often the leaders greatest contribution , after the destination is clear , will be the questions they ask , not the answers they provide . That is fascinating , because I know a whole lot of leaders who are listening , who think that their job is to define the whole thing , to answer all the questions , to be ready to just give the entire picture in full detail . And what you're saying is you provide the destination , you show the destination , but your greatest contribution after that may be the questions . Right , questions are a leader's skill . Is that a skill that you think leaders know ?

Mark Miller 35:05

Oh , absolutely Absolutely , and I think the whole the question thing is undervalued . Back back to your earlier comment about all the ways you can add value . And they're free . Questions are free as well .

Dr. William Attaway 35:20

Yes , and they're in ample supply .

Mark Miller 35:24

Yeah , I devoted an entire chapter to questions in a book we wrote a few years ago . We were trying to help leaders be more effective . The book was called Smart Leadership and we did a chapter called Ask , don't Tell . The best leaders ask more questions and they ask better questions , and I clearly think it's a skill set . But like any other skill , you know , choice is the theme that we keep coming back to here .

Mark Miller 35:54

There are a lot of things you and I can learn to do that would qualify as skills , but the prerequisite to learning them is choosing to learn them . Yes , and you're not just going to . I mean , there could be some people that are naturally curious and that manifests itself in questions , but most people I know that are good at questions work at being good at questions . They collect questions , they use them , they , they make good , at least mental notes as to which questions work and which situations , in which context . And if a question doesn't work , they don't , they don't take it out of their repertoire . They're thinking , ok , I'll save that it doesn't work in this situation , or it didn't work today but maybe it'll work later , and I would just . The last thing I'll say about that is I think most leaders have favorite or go to questions based on circumstances or context because they've gotten good traction and value from them historically .

Dr. William Attaway 36:52

That's good . Yeah , that's good . That's my experience as well in leadership and in working with leaders . I'm curious , mark , let's talk about you for a minute , ok . So much of this comes out of your journey . You know so much of this comes out of your own leadership journey and the research that you've done . You know you talk about the self and how important it is that you , that you , focus on your own leadership . How do you do that ? How do you stay on top of your game and level up with the new leadership skills that your team is going to need you to have two , three , five years from now ?

Mark Miller 37:25

OK , well , I'll try to do this really brief . I'm trying to help you watch the clock . We could talk for all day on this one topic , but it was born in a story that I really need to tell . Yeah , and this was not long after I started on the corporate staff , so this was almost 45 years ago . I had just moved out of the warehouse .

Mark Miller 37:46

I only worked in the warehouse about six months in the mailroom and my my supervisor came to me and I don't really remember what sparked the conversation , but he wanted to talk about my future . Like , I was 19 years old , might have just turned 20 . I mean , just a kid and and I don't know why we got into the conversation . He said well , I need you to understand something . I said great , I want to understand everything I can . He said if you want more influence and if you want more impact and if you want more opportunity , there's only one path . And I said what ? What Say that ?

Mark Miller 38:26

Again he said if you want more influence and you want more impact and you want more opportunity , there's only one path . And I said OK , what's that ? He said lifelong learning . I went , really . I said you're kidding me . There's no other way to more influence , more impact and more opportunity . He said that's the only way . And so I now summarize that conversation and say here's what he taught me that day your capacity to grow determines your capacity to lead , and if you can keep growing and you can keep and value , if you can keep and value , you can in fact grow your influence , your impact and your opportunity . And so I made a choice 45 years ago to commit to lifelong learning . Now my parents wish I had made that decision earlier , because I was an awful student , but nobody had ever explained to me why it mattered . I know that may sound crazy , but this guy said no , it's the single path to influence , impact and opportunity .

Mark Miller 39:30

And I was telling that story to a group not long ago and they said well , that's probably easy for you . And I said well , why do you say that ? And they said , well , I bet you're a learner , which I was assuming was a reference to Strength Finders the 34 things Everybody loves Strength Finders . Who doesn't want to take a test to tell you what you're good at ? Right , right , right . Most of my tests in life , I've learned what I was not good at . But they said I bet learners in your top five . And I said you know , I don't know , it's not in my top five . I don't think it's in my top 10 . I don't think learners in my top 25 . And they said well , you act like a learner .

Mark Miller 40:03

I said , well , thanks , because I made a choice about 45 years ago that I was going to make a commitment to lifelong learning , and so that's what started my journey . And , regarding what I do , I do all the stuff you might expect and maybe a few things you wouldn't . But I have an annual development plan that I've had for decades , trying to figure out how am I going to get better in the next 12 months . I've had coaches , I've had mentors , I still have coaches and mentors . Here's one , maybe a little bit out of the box . We started a leadership development group 26 years ago with 10 guys , and we meet twice a month for three hours . We met last night , wow . And we've been studying leadership for 26 years , and so on and on and on . I mean I just I want more influence , I want more impact , I want more opportunity , and so I made a decision to pursue lifelong learning .

Dr. William Attaway 41:05

That is a powerful inspiration . Well , it worked for me . Yeah . A friend of mine says consistency is the mother of momentum .

Mark Miller 41:14

Oh , I love that .

Dr. William Attaway 41:15

And what I see is named Jonathan Milligan brilliant guy . What I hear when I'm listening to you talk about this is the consistency and how consistency compounds and , as consistency has compounded over your journey , it has created the momentum that we all see now , and it's very easy to look at somebody like Mark Miller and say , oh wow , what momentum , what a gift . I could never do that . But where did it start ? It started with a choice , and I really want to circle back to that because I think that is something every listener needs to grab onto . This began with a choice , with a choice .

Mark Miller 41:55

Yeah , and it would be cool if learning was one of my strengths , because this might be easier . You know , I'd rather listen to the radio than a podcast or an audible book , but I've made a life choice and I do listen to the radio from time to time , but you get my point . It's like , no , this is not my natural temperament and my natural bend , but I want to serve others . I think that's what I'm supposed to do . We talked about that earlier , and my daddy used to say you can't sell out of an empty wagon . That's good , and so I'm trying to learn all I can so that I can serve more effectively . That's brilliant . That's my motivation .

Dr. William Attaway 42:43

Is there a book and you read a lot , I mean , is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would suggest every leader listening ? If you haven't read this , this is one you need to pick up .

Mark Miller 42:55

There's a lot of them and you know sometimes it's context . You know a book might speak . One of my mentors said two things determine the greatness of a book content and context . That's good . He said there may be a parenting book that is just steeped in truth . But if you don't have kids or your kids are grown , then the context is not right . But with that said , I typically would say if you're going to read one , read the effective executive by Peter Drucker . It's a classic . It's the source of the Nile . It's probably 50 years old , a little paperback , but you will see threads leading to much of the popular leadership thought . I think Drucker was the greatest management and leadership thinker of the last 2000 years . And that little book , the effective executive my book , smart Leadership , if I could be so bold was an attempt to kind of modernize that and talk about effectiveness in today's world . But I say in the introduction of that book if you've not read the effective executive , put my book down and go get his . You should read that one first .

Dr. William Attaway 44:15

So good , mark , as we wrap up , often people will walk away from an episode like this

Stay Connected with Mark Miller

Dr. William Attaway 44:22

with one big idea , one big takeaway . If you could define what you want that one big idea to be , what would that be ?

Mark Miller 44:34

Let's go back to where we started this conversation , quanto this how great do you want to be ? And then be sure it's the right kind of greatness , the kind that will be life giving , that will be soul enriching , that will help others grow and excel . Because if it's all about you , you're going to get to the end of your career or the end of your life and you're literally going to realize that you wasted so much potential . It's the overused cliche of you're going to get to the top of the ladder and realize it was against the wrong building . Yeah , just choose the path of uncommon greatness , and it's a decision I think you'll never regret .

Dr. William Attaway 45:28

I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected with you and continue . Okay , good , so what's the best way for people to connect with you ?

Mark Miller 45:37

The best way is my cell phone 678-612-8441 . If you'll put that in the show notes because I know somebody's out there driving , my email is mark at leadeverydaycom . And then we have a site called Lead . Every Day it's probably 60% finished , but we posted it because we thought it still might help some folks . If you're continuing to tinker with that , you probably know that story . Maybe we'll tinker with it forever , but there's a section on there that we're building now on how to start your own leadership development group , and we've got tips and we're going to have study questions if people want to not have to write their own . We've been writing our own study questions for 26 years , so we're going to share some of those on that site . So that's work in progress , but it'll be out there soon .

Dr. William Attaway 46:30

And I'm going to recommend that everybody listening pick up uncommon greatness , because this book is one that you will not regret reading . This is going to change your leadership if you take it to heart , mark . Thank you , thank you . Thank you for sharing so generously and so openly from what you've learned so far , and I can't wait to see what's next for you . All right , thanks a lot .

Podcast Intro 46:57

Thanks for listening to catalytic leadership with Dr William Attaway . Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode . Want more ? Go to catalyticleadershipnet .