Mastering Follow-Up: The Key to Explosive Growth and Profitability for Digital Agency Owners with Steve Rosenbaum

Dive into the world of customer retention and profitability with sales expert Steve Rosenbaum on Catalytic Leadership! Discover how his journey from a novice salesperson to a seasoned leader can inspire your own path to success. In this episode, Steve shares invaluable insights on leveraging mentorship, quality training, and a heartfelt drive for collective success. Whether you're an agency owner looking to amplify your impact or a business professional seeking growth strategies, Steve's wisdom is tailor-made for you.

Join us as we explore the power of the Pareto principle and how perfectionism can hinder progress. Steve's insights shed light on the essential aspects of entrepreneurship that yield disproportionate results when focused on. Learn how embracing imperfection can pave the way for new sales opportunities and personal growth. Tune in to this episode for actionable tips and a deeper understanding of excellence in business!

Thank you, Steve and Flawless Followup, for providing our listeners with five easy steps to enhance their follow-up system. Exclusively for Catalytic Leadership podcast listeners, you can access this valuable resource for a limited time at flawlessfollowup.com/catalytic.

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm thrilled today to have Steve Rosenbaum on the podcast. You are likely familiar with much of his work, as his courses, his lectures, his trainings and his webinars have helped tens of thousands of business and sales professionals from 155 different countries. What makes him different is his proprietary, flawless follow-up system that instantly improves your customer retention, starting on the very first day. Studies show that a mere 5% increase in your customer retention can mean up to a 95% increase in your profitability. You just got the attention of every business owner in the room, Steve. Thanks for being here.

Steve Rosenbaum: 0:50

William, can I take you on the road with me to open up?

Intro/Outro: 0:54

every event I have Wow. Thank you for that introduction that was flawless.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:00

Man, I'm looking forward to this conversation. This is going to be so fantastic.

Intro/Outro: 1:06

Man, I'm looking forward to this conversation. This is going to be so fantastic. Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author and leadership and executive coach, Dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:23

I'd love to start with you sharing just a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started, Steve?

Steve Rosenbaum: 1:33

You know I've always been in sales and when I graduated school a long, long, long time ago as you could tell by the gray hair, you know I immediately got into sales and I had some early success. And that too, by the way, is another story, because that success came from being at the right place at the right time with the right message. It so happens it was my first call, but the magic happened because I just happened to be lucky right, right place, right time, right message, all right. But, believe it or not, and I was young, I was at that time probably 24 years old, and it was my first week in a job with a new company and I had a massive sale and because of that they promoted me right away to Western Regional Sales Manager. They moved me to LA to manage the western half of the country, and so I was thrown into the deep end is how I learned about leadership.

Steve Rosenbaum: 2:37

Wow yeah, wow yeah, but so and believe me, it was was a learning experience. Did plenty wrong in those days, did plenty but but. But I have been fortunate to have great mentors, great coaching, great training, um, and in those days, in the corporate world, my company's invested in me. They put me through courses with the american management association. They they put me through professional selling skills courses and sandler sales, and so so I've been blessed throughout my corporate career to have some training, to have some mentoring, to have some coaching, or I couldn't have done it, and that's where I truly value what you do.

Dr. William Attaway: 3:16

You know, with all of that experience in so many different contexts, I'm curious how would you define that word?

Steve Rosenbaum: 3:24

leadership. Well, you know, for me it has literally been about wanting success for others, not just my customers, but in every job I ever had, the people below me replaced me, sometimes not by choice, you know, sometimes I was fired by people half my age and half my wage, but and I had trained them, but they, you know so, but I but I always wanted that. I always wanted success for everybody that I came in contact with in business. Yes, yes, customers, yes, people there. But I guess I'm a teacher at heart. I certainly want success for everybody that I come in contact with.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:15

You know that comes through. You know, having heard you speak, you know from the stage, having talked with you one on one a number of times now like that comes through. You know you are after the success and the well-being of number of times now that comes through. You are after the success and the well-being of every person that you're around, that you interact with. That's what you're broadcasting, and I think that is such an important leadership principle. You're always broadcasting Every one of us, we're always broadcasting something. Are you broadcasting that you want the best for those around you or are you broadcasting that you are for the people that you're talking to? That's choice, and it's one that you have already made and is part of your life now. Yeah, thank you, sir.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:56

You know you talk a lot about follow-up and I want to spend some time here because this is an area of expertise for you. I don't know that I have ever heard anybody talk about this like you do, and bring the sense of urgency to it that you bring. I mean what I read in the intro a 5% increase in customer attention can mean a 95% increase in profitability. Yes, please. Why follow up? Why does this matter so much? As though that one stat's not enough. Why do you believe this matters?

Steve Rosenbaum: 5:30

Well, there's so many reasons, and that stat happens to come from the Harvard Business Review. So I'm a believer that 63% of all stats are made up, but that one comes from the Harvard Business Review, so I got to believe it right. That one comes from the Harvard Business Review, so I got to believe it right. That's right, all right. So why follow up? Why follow up? I think, instinctively, common sense will tell us that it's easier, faster, cheaper to reach out to people we already know, who already know like and trust us, who've already had a great experience with us, who've already voted with their wallets, instead of going out to the crowded marketplace in the crowded world and saying, hey, look at me, come over, take out your wallet and buy from me. I'm better than everybody else. That's hard. That's hard to rise In today's world. It's hard to rise above the 6,000 emails in your inbox and all the noise that we're being hit with and bombarded with on a daily basis. So common sense alone will tell you that and, yeah, you're connected with these people. I know, william, I'm connected to you. I know how to reach you with a message. You and I have spoken. I know what you want. I say I want success for you. Well, I got an idea of what that means and what you're looking for. So that's a whole lot easier than meeting somebody for the very first time. So common sense tells you that.

Steve Rosenbaum: 6:53

But the stats do prove themselves, I mean. So, yes, there's stats like this, like you were talking about. Small increases mean big increases in profit. Returning customers. Not only are they more likely to buy, they tend to buy more, they tend to try more products, they tend to spread that valuable word of mouth. We all love word of mouth, most valuable form of marketing out there. Well, guess who spreads the most word of mouth? It's your customers, right? That just makes sense. Yeah, so there's all those reasons.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:24

And then, finally, I'll tell you this the biggest reason of all is because your competition's not doing it that's solid and I you know, I hear that a lot, you know working a lot with agency owners and I know we both work in that space, like the, the the feedback that I get, not just from the agency owners themselves sometimes they they tell on themselves, but it's about the clients that they work with, people who contract them to help them generate more leads, generate more business, and then they do that and it gave them this solid lead pipeline and then they don't follow up.

Steve Rosenbaum: 8:00

It is so true, and you know, and those agency owners, they'll tell you. It is so true, and you know, and those agency owners, they'll tell you. Everyone I've ever asked they said has anybody ever complained to you about the quality of the leads that you're getting them? Every one of them says they all complain. And then they all say to me but they don't know how to sell. That's right, and it's because they're like, as I said, your competition isn't following up. Neither are they, and it's because they're like, as I said, your competition isn't following up. Neither are they. 50% of all people never make a single follow-up call, right? Two-thirds of people never follow up more than twice. Oh yeah, and if you want to beat 89% of your competition, follow up more than four times and guess when the buying decision is made. Not until at least seven or eight or nine times.

Dr. William Attaway: 8:49

So you know, this is why people are failing so often. I'm stuck on the first one 50% of people never made a follow-up call.

Steve Rosenbaum: 8:55

Like really, I thought you were stuck on the 63% one.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:01

I'm sorry, that's a big one. I'm trying to get past that first one Like 50%.

Steve Rosenbaum: 9:05

And that's a study by Microsoft Corporation.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:07

yes, why do you think that is?

Steve Rosenbaum: 9:12

Why? Because they don't have systems and processes in place. I'm a process guy more than anything and that's why, you know, I think a lot. And this is where I go back to one of the first things. You asked me about my success. I said I was blessed to have training.

Steve Rosenbaum: 9:26

What I figured out is selling is not about being able to talk smoothly, you know it used to be. They used to say you know, he's such a good salesman, he could sell ice to the Eskimos. Right, yeah? And today I think only I'll say a jerk. Usually I use a worse word than that Only. And today I think only I'll say a jerk. Usually I use a worse word than that Only a jerk would sell ice to an Eskimo. Well, what's the thing is? You know they don't need ice, is the point right? So why would you do that?

Steve Rosenbaum: 9:52

So it's always about smooth talking and that's why, frankly, salespeople have sometimes a bad reputation, right, but that's not really what it's about. If you have a process in place and that process has, there's a lot that goes into that process, and it's not always skill, as my success story told you. It's about being at the right place at the right time with the right message. Now you can skillfully increase your odds of that happening if you follow up continuously, frequently. Okay, then you increase your odds of being at the right place at the right time with the right message, or you can wait for luck to happen, and that's why you convert at about three percent of the time, because you're just waiting to get lucky is there a an element of this that is based in fear?

Dr. William Attaway: 10:43

fear of becoming like the people who just slam your inbox over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, who pester you to death, it feels? Is there a sense of fear that you're going to become like that.

Steve Rosenbaum: 10:57

Yes and I can help alleviate that fear. Okay, some people are absolutely going to think you're pestering them to death and they're going to opt, opt out. Or they're going to tell you never call me again and they might even call you some dirty names. Okay, but if you never hear that you're not following up well enough, wow, that's good, it will happen. Okay, you're not going to convince 100% of the people you meet to buy from you. Not going to convince 100% of the people you meet to buy from you. You're really just looking to get the small percentage. So, when they do because, let's face it, if you are converting at just 3%, that means you're failing 97% of the time your chances of improving are not from the people that say no. They're from the people that didn't say no. They're from the people that either said maybe or not right now, or didn't say anything at all. The chance for you to improve your sales is not by convincing no to say yes. It's by staying engaged with the people that haven't told you one way or the other.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:05

That is fascinating. So how do you get somebody started If they're in this boat, where they're like, yeah, I know I need to do better at this. Yeah, maybe I do follow up once, maybe twice occasionally, but how do you get started? Where would you start?

Steve Rosenbaum: 12:22

with somebody. The place I start with nearly every single client is what I call a win-back campaign. It's by reaching out to your past customers, it's by just touching base, re-engaging, and you're likely going to find opportunities. And just about any business can do that, especially today, william, because businesses have an advantage. When I started doing this independently as a consultant about 12 years ago and I use email a lot and I use text messaging a lot In those days it was purely email. Text messaging wasn't as big a deal as it is today.

Steve Rosenbaum: 13:04

My number one thing that I had to teach businesses was you have to build a list. You're very good at this. You're very good at meeting people, getting them on a list, following up with them. You're doing a great job with your consistency, with your podcast. You email very well. You get this. Most businesses don't. So for the first several years, that had to be what I told them.

Steve Rosenbaum: 13:26

Today, the reality is, because of technology, many businesses have a list. They don't even realize it, but they've got a list in their system somewhere. They've got it. Retailers many of them have lists in their point of sale system that's sitting on their countertop. Many people have a CRM. They're not using it properly. Many people have contacts in a different program. Maybe they're in QuickBooks and you say well, gee, that's my accounting program, so I don't use that for marketing. Well, you've got those contacts and you're not using it? Why do you think? What did Intuit pay MailChimp For MailChimp? It was what? Four or five billion dollars for MailChimp. Yeah, why? Because they knew that all their businesses had contacts that they weren't marketing with.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:14

See, you start them with a win-back campaign. You start them with the people that they already have and that have either bought from the past or they're on their list. So these aren't stone cold leads.

Steve Rosenbaum: 14:25

Right. Many of them have bought from you before.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:27

Yeah, then what?

Steve Rosenbaum: 14:30

Well, we do that right away because it's a fast win. And when I say fast, we get responses, I will say usually I'll even say almost always we'll get responses on the very first day. I would tell you, we always get a response on the very first day. But as soon as I say that, then the first person you know but I've been doing this for so many years and you get a response on the very first day, Okay, you do All right now. So we do that because A you get a fast response.

Steve Rosenbaum: 14:59

And what does every business owner want? They want an roi. They want to know hey, if I pay you for this service, I want to know if it works. Well, guess what? You're going to see very quickly this works okay. And then you're going to ask me well, what else can you do? What can you do for me next?

Steve Rosenbaum: 15:14

And then we go into putting more systems in place for you. I have, I have a four-stage system. It's called the LEAK-proof funnel system. Leak is an acronym I'm not very good at spelling. It's L-E-A-C, it's lead generation, it's engagement, action and conversion. So we put that four-stage system in place and then there's follow-up after the conversion as well. Leak wasn't a very good acronym, so I just add the follow-up at the end. So that's what I do. There's core. It's all about processes. As I said, we put these processes in place and it doesn't matter what software you use, what CRM you use. It's a process that can be done. It can be done manually with pencil and paper. It will just take you a whole lot longer and you'll make a lot of mistakes. But it doesn't matter what system you use.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:11

You know, a lot of the people listening are entrepreneurs in the agency space, you know, and agency owners that's a different place to be. That's a different kind of entrepreneur, because you're really serving people in the way you're describing, in a unique way. Now I understand you have some training and some products that you gear specifically for agency owners. What does that look like?

Steve Rosenbaum: 16:36

Well, thank you for asking about that. Yes, well, it's exactly what we were speaking about. So here's agency owners and I know many of them and some of the services that they provide on a regular basis are on the lead generation side. They're search engine optimization, they're paid advertising, it's social media, it's all about getting eyeballs. The thing is, and they're hearing from their clients okay, you're getting me these leads, but these leads aren't buying right. What they don't have in place is they don't have that follow-up system. So, yeah, I am bringing that to them, both in in a done for you process form, but also training, for not only them, but training for the business clients. The business clients need a lot of training as well. Nice.

Dr. William Attaway: 17:24

So you're hitting both ends of that. I love that. I think the intentionality of that that's got to bear fruit. I mean, as you, as you have seen this, what does that look like? What does that fruit look like?

Steve Rosenbaum: 17:36

Well, the fruit looks like more people raising their hands and coming in to buy. I mean, my big vision, william, is I've helped many businesses increase their revenue by more than a million dollars. All right, so the more businesses I can reach, spreading that success okay, agencies are a great catalyst for that. Wonderful people like you and podcasts like this are a great catalyst for that All right, the more businesses that I could reach that hear this message, I realized, wow, I'm sitting, I'm literally sitting on my next sale and I don't know it.

Steve Rosenbaum: 18:10

And that's true. Okay, If you have a business and you're watching this, you already know your next customer. You just don't know how to make that customer come up and buy from you today. And that's what I do, all right. So the point of the matter is, I know I can help businesses increase their sales by an extra million dollars. For the most part, I'm talking about small to mid-sized businesses. Okay, so my goal is to reach 10,000 businesses and that creates $10 billion worth of revenue. So, in terms of numbers, that's always a goal and a mission of mine that I've been that I put out there to the universe several years ago, you know.

Steve Rosenbaum: 18:55

I think that's what Jim Collins referred to as a big, hairy, audacious goal. Yes, yes.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:59

Or or naive, I'm not sure which, but it's one or the other. I'm going for the BHAG. I'm just saying I think that's brilliant. Steve, I know what you have shared, what you've taught. I mean, I've taken notes, listening to you speak and watching you online. You have helped me to solidify my systems, my processes, because of the intentionality with which you focus and the practical nature of what you're sharing so often with whether it's a CRM tweak or hack or this bolt-on that you do here. It can get overwhelming and sometimes a business owner or an agency owner looks at this and they're like, okay, I'm really good at marketing, or I'm really good at this, I'm not so good at that, and you get overwhelmed. What I love about what you're describing is anybody can do this.

Steve Rosenbaum: 19:54

Yes, thank you for that, william. And the other thing I'll say to you is stop going for perfection. Okay, if we're all believers of is stop going for perfection, okay, if we're all believers of the 80-20 rule.

Intro/Outro: 20:04

Yeah.

Steve Rosenbaum: 20:05

All right, and you know some form or fashion of it. I know some people say, oh, it's more like 95-5. That's irrelevant. Okay, the bottom line is, what we know is that small increases can have big results. As Dan Kennedy says. You know, small hinges swing big doors. Right, that's right, all right. And so so many people are worried about perfection I don't have this perfectly dialed in yet that they're leaving tons of money on the table. By the way, I've been guilty of this myself. Okay, so, so I get that and I get that, but stop it, you know, and stop worrying. Is somebody going to think I'm spamming them or opting out? Because, look at it this way Look at the people that absolutely want and need your service today, that are counting on people like you, and they're looking for your solution, and are you going to deny them the right to buy your product today because you're worried about somebody that's never going to buy from you again, saying I don't want to hear from you again?

Dr. William Attaway: 21:06

good, that's good you're.

Steve Rosenbaum: 21:08

You're denying people that want and need your product and does, and you know, deserve to buy your product. You're you're denying them the right to buy your product. You can't serve them if you don't sell them. That's right. That's right. That's really good. If you want to sell more, make more offers.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:24

Yeah, that's so good, steve, you know you are leading at a different level today than you did five years ago or ten years ago. You know you've grown in your own leadership. Thank you. Five years from now, you're going to have to lead at a different level yet. Yeah, what are you doing to stay on top of your game? How do you?

Steve Rosenbaum: 21:50

level up. I don't know that. I have an answer for you, William, and probably I need to consult somebody like you for a little bit more formality in that area because, um, you know, and I really do at this stage of my life, I've got my knowledge, I've got my passion, I've got my interests and I really it's really my heart that's driving me each and every day. So I can't tell you that I have mapped out for you what I need to improve over the next five years. So it's a wonderful question. I'm going to have to think about that one.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:26

That's good.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:27

You know, often I tell clients that you will never get the right answers unless you ask the right questions, and the questions that we ask ourselves matter, and so I really appreciate your transparency and authenticness there, steve. That means a lot, you know. I think that people could look at you and they could say, oh, steve Rosenbaum, such a success. Steve Rosenbaum, he's got it all figured out. He knows how to do this thing. He doesn't have to deal with the same challenges and struggles that entrepreneurs like me have to do. If they look at you and all they see is a trajectory up and to the right. Is there anything you would share about your journey?

Steve Rosenbaum: 23:12

Yeah, they should speak to my wife. That's good. You're an entrepreneur, william, and you know, sure, I've accomplished a lot and we've had lots of success. But this entrepreneurial journey is hell, yeah, okay, all the time. All the time it's not easy, okay. So I started with wanting to get one client. Now I want to get 10,000. You know, we do this to ourselves. So, yes, I've had plenty of success, yes, I'm blessed in a lot of ways, but it's like everybody else, believe me.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:55

If you could go back toward the beginning of your journey, maybe talk to that 24-year-old kid that you used to be and you could share one thing based on what you know now with that guy what would you love to go back and share?

Steve Rosenbaum: 24:09

I would have quit my job and quit the corporate world 28 years earlier. Wow, why?

Dr. William Attaway: 24:15

is that.

Steve Rosenbaum: 24:16

You know, like I told you, that they did do a lot of great things for me in terms of training and things like that. Sure, there were some benefits. I always had that false belief that I had security, I got paid well, and I thought that the big paycheck and the insurance and the trips and, hey, I traveled a lot, so I earned a lot of points, we got to take nice vacations. You know, I thought that was all security until they went away. That's right. And guess what? Everything else went away too. I mean, we look, we went through bankruptcy when we made that transition. That was rough, that was rough, rough, rough. All right.

Steve Rosenbaum: 24:57

But I have never been as happy as content in what I do, as, as, as, as, as following what I'm passionate about. I is following what I'm passionate about. I do think it's pretty obvious that I love what I do. And you know, in the corporate world you can't be that passionate. You just you're not working for yourself. It's not your vision, it's not your goals. You're being told what to do and ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a job, it's a J-O-B, you know, no matter how much they pay you, you know you're a continual learner and I have watched you taking notes when other people are speaking, because you never stop learning.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:40

Is there a book that you have run across in your journey that has really made a big difference that you would recommend that every leader listening would put on their to-read list?

Steve Rosenbaum: 25:51

Now, obviously, if I asked you that question, we'd be here all day.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:58

I might have a few suggestions.

Steve Rosenbaum: 26:04

You know what, and it's funny, you asked me that question because that question literally landed me a job in the corporate world. I may have introduced you to a friend of mine named Tom Lauderay, and that was one of his interview questions. All right, he hired me. He hired me in the year 2002. All right, and we're still friends today. We still do business today, which, by the way, you know why? Because we followed up and stayed in touch.

Steve Rosenbaum: 26:31

Uh-oh, in fact, you know, I reached out to him about three years ago, even though it had been so long, and I said how am I working on something that might interest you? Instantly we started doing things together. Right, that's the power of following up, but I digress. But he asked me that question about a book and I was able to rattle off several books, and then he asked me a follow-up what did you like about each book? And I was able to answer them. Well, it turns out I'm the only person they interviewed that not only could talk about books but actually read those books. Because then we asked the follow-up question what did you like most about? You know it had a pretty cover. You know nobody had ever cracked those books. Today I want to tell you that I probably get more of my information by, not from books, but from others online. I love to listen to successful people about what makes them successful, so you know, I'll watch more videos, I'll watch more webinars and I'll do more of that than I will books per se. That's good.

Dr. William Attaway: 27:47

That's good, you know, and that is so illustrative of a principle that you know I don't like to read I'm a slow reader. Hey, you know what you can learn from so many different venues, so many different inputs in our day that simply were not available a few generations ago. Right, you know? I mean, our grandparents did not have the option to listen to a million podcasts in their pocket. They didn't have that option. We do. You know we can watch YouTube videos of the best speakers in the world sharing the best content around for free. Absolutely, steve. If people walk away from this episode with one big idea and that's often what we do when we hear an episode that has so much insight like this one has from what you've shared People will typically distill that down to one big idea. If you could define what you want that one big idea to be, what would you want that to be?

Steve Rosenbaum: 28:48

It's going to be what I mentioned a few minutes ago. You already know your next customer, all right, you are already connected to somebody. If you're in business for any period of time and you've got past customers and if you are in business for any period of time, you better have past customers then there's somebody that wants to buy from you again All right, and that's the big idea. Buy from you again All right, and that's the big idea. And start there. Start there Now for all you digital marketing agencies. Listen to this.

Steve Rosenbaum: 29:17

I am not telling you that SEO is not important. I'm not telling you that pay-per-click is not important, but I am telling you this If you don't have the follow-up system in place, then you're not going to succeed as much as you can. So have that process in place and, by the way, it doesn't have to be a big fancy process. I mean I teach one thing where I call it the eight email follow-up system and remember we talked about the 80-20 rule I mean that will get you a good start. It's not perfect, it's not flawless. It is the MVP, the minimum viable process that it is.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:58

So good. See, this has just been a masterclass today on so much about follow-up that I think our listeners did not know. I certainly didn't know all of it, and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so generously from the insight and wisdom that you have gained so far in your journey, and I can't wait to see what's next for you?

Steve Rosenbaum: 30:17

Well, likewise, thank you for having me here. Thank you for allowing me to hopefully inspire all these businesses. I got a lot of businesses to reach, william, so it takes people like you and I really appreciate it.

Dr. William Attaway: 30:29

Absolutely. I know a lot of the folks listening are going to want to stay connected with you and continue to learn from you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Steve Rosenbaum: 30:37

Well, certainly, my website's, flawlessfollowupcom, and I have a little web chat widget there. Just let them know. You heard me on Dr Attaway's podcast, all right, but we could also put up a special page that I'll tell you what. Why don't we call it flawlessfollowupcom? Slash catalytic? How about that? Love it? All right, so I will put that up and then we'll put something there. We'll give them five easy steps to follow up. You get a little taste of what follow-up looks like.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:11

Steve, that's so generous, Thank you. Thank you, William. Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:52

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro/Outro: 32:36

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet. Thank you, thank you.