The Balanced Leader: Navigating Business, Family, and Growth with Jay Aigner

Embark on an enlightening journey through the complexities of leadership as I, Dr. William Attaway, engage with Jay Aigner, CEO of JDAQA, who divulges the twists and turns of leaving a stable job to lead a thriving software testing agency. Discover how Jay harnessed the unpredictability of timing and luck, transitioning from a hands-on role to a visionary leader. His candid revelations on converting business challenges into growth opportunities and fostering a culture of accountability and teamwork will inspire anyone at the crossroads of leadership and ambition.

Tune in for a masterclass in the subtle arts of listening and humility, where I unravel the seldom-discussed yet crucial aspects of effective leadership. We dissect the transformative impact of owning mistakes and nurturing a supportive team dynamic, equipping you with the wisdom to empower those around you and create a legacy that transcends the quest for personal accolades. Our conversation also covers the delicate interplay between professional drive, family life, and the ceaseless pursuit of knowledge, offering valuable insights for anyone striving to enrich their life tapestry.

As we conclude our session, you'll be privy to a treasure trove of leadership principles honed over two decades of coaching a myriad of leaders. With anecdotes that illustrate the indispensability of integrity, discipline, and a well-balanced existence, I extend an open invitation for continued dialogue on LinkedIn and offer personalized coaching for those ready to elevate their leadership prowess. Join us for a transformative exploration that promises to reshape the way you approach life's ventures and cultivate a legacy of growth and fulfillment.

Transcript

Intro/Outro: 0:01

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 0:18

I'm so excited today to have Jay Aigner on the podcast. Jay is the CEO of JDAQA, a software testing agency with $2 million in annual recurring revenue. He's the father of five, a student pilot, a hockey player and an amateur astrophotographer. He also hosts a podcast called the First Customer, where he interviews successful founders about how they got their first customer. He went from the nine to five to consulting, to the freedom of running his own business that has grown from a one-man software testing consultancy to a seven-figure testing agency powerhouse with 60 plus employees. His family is also currently being featured in a documentary about time management and how successful people spend their time. Jay, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show, Dr.

Jay Aigner: 1:12

William, how are you? Buddy? I'm glad to see you again. We did our pre-interview and I've been waiting to talk to you again, since it's great to talk to you, man.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:19

I've been looking forward to this too. This is going to be a great conversation. Yes, sir, I want to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader.

Jay Aigner: 1:31

I don't know when that happened. I feel like, you know, it comes in spurts throughout you know somebody's life and then maybe it kind of just flips on when you get the right opportunity and you get the right timing. And I think we talked about it before too. It's like anybody who says timing isn't, uh, a big part of it, or luck isn't a big part of it, I think isn't isn't really being honest with themselves. So, um, yeah, I, you know, I never, you know, I did lead stuff.

Jay Aigner: 2:01

I was a lead at different companies, um, but really, when I started to realize I could pay other folks to work for me, I had to shift my mindset to being, you know, uh, a leader of people, which I love to do now. And I, I kind of identify myself as being a leader of people, like some people like to do that, some people like to do the you know the, the hands-on stuff. Some people like to do design stuff. Like I like to lead people.

Jay Aigner: 2:28

And I think you know I can't really point to anything specific in my, my past that I would say like that was the moment, but you know, surely being pushed into it a little bit helps when I realized like, hey, I can hire somebody else to, you know, for 25 an hour and the client's going to pay me 50. And then I'm making 25 an hour to just make that connection and manage everything. I'm like that's, that's what I want to do and the light bulb went off. So I think doing the hard work of consulting multiple jobs while having multiple jobs was, like you know, enough for me to realize like, all right, this leadership thing is fun, it's exciting and, um, it doesn't feel like work for me, right, when that's the old cliche like, if it doesn't, you know it won't feel like work. Um, you know, you won't work a day in your life.

Dr. William Attaway: 3:12

So um, that that's kind of how I like to lead. You know, it's interesting to to listen to a little bit of your story there that that you can't point to a specific time, and I would imagine if we were to go back a ways toward the beginning of your journey, you would not have predicted it was going to turn out exactly like it has.

Jay Aigner: 3:32

I think and I ask people on my podcast I always say where'd you grow up and did that have any impact on you being an entrepreneur? And I ask that because it's a very interesting question to me, because I wonder that in my mind my mom was an entrepreneur. Like she ran a newspaper and like did like this, this local directory, and like she would like barter for stuff, like she would like give people an ad and newspaper and then they would give her, like you know, horse feed for like a year, whatever the hell it was Like, whatever the thing was like she would do. And you know I was around that growing up and I had like a little business doing websites for her, um, her people that she had an advertising agency. So when they needed a website I would make it at like 12 or 13 years old and like that was kind of my first just realized like that was cool, like that was a good.

Jay Aigner: 4:12

You know, being able to pick up those projects and do them and make extra money at the time was like super cool to me. So, um, yeah, I think it has a lot to do with environment, but um, yeah, and then then I went to the nine to five world for years and just did my job and executed and did what I was supposed to do and it looks like it was leading some capacity. But yeah, I think it's really circumstance that pulls out leadership sometimes and like you don't know, it's there and you know, maybe you grind really hard for a long time and then eventually it comes out.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:47

You know it's a different skill too, you know, I mean you know you can. You can work the nine to five. You can execute for other people and help to build somebody else's vision Right.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:51

But when you step into your own thing, when you start your own business, and then you have to hire other people to help you with fulfillment, you realize real quick it's not about what you do anymore. It's not about you using your gifts, your skills, your passion. It's about learning to lead a team. How has that shift been? Something that you have encountered and dealt with?

Jay Aigner: 5:31

Because that's not easy for everybody. I think it all kind of came together when I realized that no problem in the business or even in my life is anybody else's fault. It's very easy and we all know the bosses that point fingers or middle managers that point fingers or whatever. And there were some issues, always been issues with business. You figure stuff out, you have problems, you solve it, whatever. But like I think once I finally realized that like I I hired that guy or I was in charge of the process for the people that hired that guy, you know, and the further abstracted you get up in the chain, like the more you lose responsibility. But at the end of the day, like it all goes back to you and like that was the biggest. I think that was the biggest moment for me when I realized like okay, if that guy didn't do what he was supposed to do, that's my fault.

Jay Aigner: 6:12

And running a business is easy to just say like everything kind of comes back to you, but you really have to like own why that was, and own.

Jay Aigner: 6:21

And I think people appreciate that in an organization like it's not, it's not like lip service, where I just say it on meetings or something like I I hope everybody in my team knows that like I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus, like we're going to figure out what happened, like it goes back to me and, uh, I will help remedy it right.

Jay Aigner: 6:41

Like I'm not going to put anybody on an island and like you know, some people don't fit, sure, but again, like that goes back to your hiring process and like learn, like how do you read people during an interview and what are the questions you're asking and what does your onboarding look like, and like all these different things. And we've grown and learned along the way and it's, you know, I'm lucky to have a really uh strong partner in my coo that like kind of handles the execution side of things and lets me just be the goofball that I am and try to like figure this thing out. And she's been a fantastic along the way. We've grown this thing to a pretty, you know good spot just because we've listened to our people in our you know, in our clients.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:14

I think Well, and I think I think that's that is such an underutilized leadership skill. Listening, yeah, one of the things that that I love about how you're describing that is you know, poor leaders do point fingers and they do shift blame unless it's time to take the credit, and those poor leaders will often then be like well, no, no, no I led that I'm the responsible.

Jay Aigner: 7:36

Right now.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:37

And one thing I love in our pre-interview is you talked about this and how letting other people shine is core to who you are as a leader talked about this and how letting other people shine is core to who you are as a leader.

Jay Aigner: 7:48

Yeah, and I honestly I feel like the biggest personal growth I've had is doing that. Not at work, like in, in like normal family life. Yeah, right, like you've got in-laws and you've got your parents and you've got friends and family and people in the community, and it's like it's so easy to just be like, you know, trying to to bring up the point that like well, I helped with that, or like I was really, and like it doesn't do anybody any good, like it's like you like let your wife, let your family or let your kids or your in-laws let them, you know, not just feel like they had a win, like let them have the win, like just be part of it and support them and whatever, and like it all just kind of comes back anyway. Like it's I think that's the trick to it, right is like it's kind of like sales, like if you're just there to support and to help and to do whatever, it's gonna work. Like you're not gonna be this overly, you know, annoying salesperson. You're gonna be a, a guy that's out there solving problems.

Jay Aigner: 8:45

I feel like in my personal life, in work life, um, just really trying to take a step back and like your credit will come, like people will recognize you, like people will think you're you know, whatever.

Jay Aigner: 8:57

Um, but not, not if you're going after it, not if you're trying to get that credit you're going to look like. And the worst, I think, is the passive, aggressive type, like the will point fingers and blame and take credit, but do it in a way that's like very passive, aggressive in a work environment Like your. You know your boss will. Uh, it was one boss who would say, like you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but like this is what I think and it would be like this kind of like around the bend way of saying that everybody in the room was wrong except for him and it's like everybody saw through it and it was like so annoying and it just I've tried to pick up pieces of that I hated when I worked for places and make sure I do the opposite. Right, it's like you know, do like you know, think about what an idiot does and like do the opposite, like that's. That's kind of like my goal in life, I think.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:48

I love that. Think about what an idiot does. Do the opposite.

Jay Aigner: 9:51

That's it.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:55

That's brilliant, that you know that. That willingness to to share the credit or give the credit to somebody else, that that willingness to say I'm going to encourage somebody else to be the hero here and not try to hog this for myself, that reflects a maturity, and I'm guessing that's not where you started.

Jay Aigner: 10:11

No, no, no, no, that takes a long. Uh, it takes a lot, man. It takes being married for, you know, over a decade, and like having a bunch of kids and having a business and stuff. I don't think it's a weird. I think about all the time like where, where does the where's experience like kick in? Like where, like at what point are you kind of like?

Jay Aigner: 10:31

And then I think eventually, like everybody that has experience, realize, like you know nothing and like you have so much to do, like it's that you're never gonna be this ideal version of yourself. But if you're going for it, then like you're, you're doing better, you're, day by day, you're improving and making other people happy. And um, yeah, I think eventually you start realizing, like making other people happy, making your clients happy, making your employees happy, making your family happy, like that's the important stuff. Right, it's like I don't know, do I like to go do my hobbies, absolutely? But like I take care of everything else first and then you know kind of take care of myself and like, so the credit comes. Like people notice you know, my family knows that like I'm there and my employees know, my clients know, so, um, yeah, it's like a weird, like selfless but not selfless thing, because you get fulfilled from like not being selfless. So it's like, yeah, at the end of the day it does come back and everybody's happy.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:26

And trying to ensure that you're first trying to ensure you know. Hey, it gives you the exact opposite result. Yeah, I've seen that to be true as well. I mean, next month, my wife and I will celebrate 26 years of marriage.

Jay Aigner: 11:38

Congratulations.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:39

I'll tell you what man that that's. That's, that's a lot of years of my life as I'm thinking back on that, and there's so many things I've learned that I would never have known in year one, year, two or year three.

Jay Aigner: 11:59

Or would you have listened in year one or year two to your future self telling you hey, man, this is the stuff that? So it's like, at what point in your journey do you receive that like? Where? At what point in your journey do you receive that? Yeah, like when, when would you be, you know, uh, receptive to that sort of really good advice that, like future you was trying to tell you and you're like dude, you're an idiot, like I'm not listening, like no way, like I'm not gonna listen to that. So I think about that too is like, where do you become? Uh, because you can listen to stuff like where do you listen and apply it like in your life? There's some point where that starts to kick in. I think it takes longer for guys, by the way, because we're 100%. I think it's in the late 20s. Maybe you start to get it a little bit, which is why younger, you know, impressive entrepreneurs and stuff are like even more impressive to me because, like they're getting it earlier than I got it for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 12:44

Yeah, me too. You know I often talk about how important evaluation is and I say that. You know I don't believe experience makes you better. We have this idea that the more experience you have doing something, the better you get. I don't think that's true at all. I think evaluated experience makes you better and it's when it's when it's evaluated and reflected on and you adapt and change. That's when you get better.

Jay Aigner: 13:07

Yep, I agree.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:09

Too many people have 20 years of experience. They think really they just have one year of experience. That's been repeated 20 times, right, they've just done the same things, the same way. They're not adapting, changing, growing, learning and looking at your journey, I love that teachable spirit that you have, because that idea that I want to grow, I want to learn, I want to get better, you know, that seems so evident from what you're describing, from your journey so far.

Jay Aigner: 13:35

I just get bored, man, I get really bored, like. I get really bored, like doing the same stuff over and over again. And I get the older I get and the more uh experience I get running a business, the less tolerance I have for things that I shouldn't be spending time on. So, like you know, I'm call myself a delegation evangelist. Like I totally believe that there's somebody in your team that can probably do it better than you're doing it and you should be off doing something else and I think that's like business coach one-on-one. I think like that's their big self to be. You know, and I, you know you do a business coach and I think I don't have a business coach, but all the ones I've talked to in my podcast and all the ones I know in my life, like that's kind of just core to it. It's like, uh, so yeah, I think just having so much to do all the time and like wanting to do like I mean just even my hobbies alone are just like ridiculously. Um, like you have to learn a lot, you have to, you have to constantly. Like being a pilot, like I'm still haven't got my license yet, I still have to. You know, keep working on that I do astrophotography stuff, which is like an insanely complex hobby and I'm not a like the smartest guy in the room, so like, I'm constantly like trying to learn things and like processing techniques and then like acquisition techniques and gear stuff and like building communities and um, so, yeah, I think that's. I think that just always wanted to learn, or I'll see something that's cool.

Jay Aigner: 15:08

Like I saw something linked in the other day that I don't know if you saw that guy. Uh, he had a video of himself and then he was running a program that was voiced by david attenborough, the ai. David attenborough, yeah, yeah, that could. That could analyze. It would take a, a screenshot every five seconds of the video, because it's not fast enough computationally to do a full video yet, which I'm sure is in the near future, but it would take a still screenshot. It would ask chat gbt via api in the back end like hey, in the voice of david or the in the character of david attenborough, tell me what this image is right, what, what's, what, what's on the screen, and then it would pipe it to this other thing called 11 labs, which is another AI voice tool.

Jay Aigner: 15:51

That was was loaded up with David Attenborough's voice, so it was literally like narrating a live video of this guy, like you know, in the Dave Attenborough voice, and I was like that's super cool, like I love that, I like just what's behind. That's like I've spent the weekend like figuring out, like how do I do that? And like built a little thing. That was like kind of working you know that could do the same thing and like that, just seeing stuff that's cool and interesting, exciting. Um, going and doing it, I think, is just part of keeping things fresh. We are always trying to learn something, man. Just, I'm never bored. I don't even know what that would look like, honestly.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:25

I can't imagine you are bored. I mean, in addition to all of those things that you've described, you have five kids. I do have five kids. You're married to five kids. How do you balance, like a family, a wife, five kids, with running a multimillion dollar business?

Jay Aigner: 16:42

Yeah, it's all just blends together at this point. I don't think it was like that forever. You know what I mean? I did my consulting thing and after hours I would work and then I built the business up, um, but now it all kind of just like there's no, there's no like start of the day and end of the day. It's just like which I mean, some people could probably handle and some people probably couldn't, like they need that rigid kind of like framework, um, but yeah, man, but I've always kind of been like that.

Jay Aigner: 17:16

I think I've always been like if my wife needed me, like I was going to figure out a way to leave work, like if I was going to, you know, if I needed to work remote cause my daughter was whatever I would figure out a way to do do like it was always like not an option for me and it's just. It's a definitely I live the uh ask for permission lifestyle like my entire life and I continue to live that way and like it opens up a lot of cool experiences and get to do a lot of things. That like I think people would just be standing there like wishing they had done something. So like I always try to do that. It's like a goal of mine to like, if there's something that makes me nervous or something that like other people are nervous to do, like in a room full of people and they won't go talk to them, like I want to, just like I'm terrified and I don't want to go talk to that person, but like I try to make myself, you know, to get over those those like invisible barriers, to like do something cool and different. So, uh, long answer is just you know, I don't.

Jay Aigner: 18:10

I don't separate the two, I don't separate business and kids and whatever. It's just like I have a calendar, work calendar. I have a family calendar of a personal calendar. I have a couple executive assistants that like literally manage that counter for me and are like fantastic and they're like my extension of my arms and legs. They like will ask me if you know, hey, it looks like you have something double booked or you have something coming up next week. Like we know you've got to do parent teacher conferences in the afternoon. Should we cancel this stuff? Or like, if I'm sick and I'm like guys, I need you to clear out today and tomorrow, then like they reschedule everything. So I think having that help now is is massive.

Jay Aigner: 18:52

But you know, I've always kind of just made family first, which is like such a cliche thing, but it's like it's just true, like I I mean my kids don't know a world where I'm less, I'm more than like 10 feet away from them, like my office is in my converted garage that I've made into an office, like they don't used to be in the basement where their play area was, like they don't know a world where I'm not around, um, which is good and bad, right, I mean, if my seven-year-old daughter is like like ridiculously attached to me and she's, like you know, doesn't like me to leave for more than five minutes, but, um, yeah, I just I don't, I don't think I haven't, I think having the rigid separation. So, like I said, some people can't do that, some people drive them nuts, some people need that and I certainly block off time for work and I have my stuff and everybody kind of knows. But it's having a strong partner. You know, I mean my wife. Like it took a while, I think, for us to kind of balance it out and like now she's starting her own business. It kind of balance it out and like now she's starting her own business, so it's like becoming a little like a uh. I have to balance.

Jay Aigner: 19:51

You know, keeping my mouth shut, trying to help unsolicited, you know help I don't think is ever a good thing, but you know, whenever she needs me for like advice on business stuff, I try to do that. So, yeah, it's um, I think I think having a really strong partnership, um, and just being able to be flexible and people, people are way more forgiving, I think, to like reschedule stuff and do it and then, like people assume they would like they'll like not go to, like their kids whatever, because you know they have some. I'm like dude, I can't like you know, something came up. I'm always honest. That's another thing. I always make sure I'm honest in my reschedules, like my executive assistants, I think, have worked with other people who like maybe are less than honest.

Jay Aigner: 20:35

Yeah, and I'm like don't say that, like please don't tell them that. Like you know something bad, like you just don't. Like we got to just say, and maybe you know softer version of it, but if you know, like you know, hey, he's got to take his uh, wife's grandparents to the hospital, like whatever it is. Like. I just I would rather tell the truth and just be like then, people, 99.9 of the time, I had one guy uh on on pod match that was like pissed off because I rescheduled him a couple times and he was like you know, at this point it's just insulting and I'm like, all right, all right, dude, like totally get it. Like not a big deal, sorry. Like maybe you're not a great fit. Ironically, his automation on LinkedIn, I guess, connected with me and now he sends me like automated messages about how we should work together every like week or two. I have just let that go, I haven't said anything, but if he's watching, you know who you are. So anyway, super, anyway, super long-winded answer. Sorry about that, that's great.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:28

Yeah, I think that's such a challenge for a lot of people and I love the model that I don't know that I've heard anybody talk about it quite like that, jay. I mean this idea of it just kind of seamlessly blending together. It dovetails with something that I often teach, and that is that we have this idea that our lives are compartmented. That I often teach, and that is that we have this idea that our lives are compartmented. It's an idea that we got from the ancient Greeks, that that you can, you know, wall off different parts of your life, and what happens at work doesn't affect what happens in your marriage, it doesn't affect what happens, you know, in your hobbies, et cetera, et cetera. And that's a cute myth. It's just not true. The fact is that there are no walls, that every part touches every other part, right, because you are one integrated person and telling them a life of integrity means that you are allowing everything to touch everything else. Yeah, and that's what it sounds like you're describing.

Jay Aigner: 22:18

It's very similar. I think I just my life. I chose to have a bunch of kids, like if I was not making them a priority. I don't know why I'm having a bunch of kids Like if I was not making them a priority. I don't know why I'm having a bunch of them and having another one, like in February. So it's like why, thank you, uh, but man and I mean it's different.

Jay Aigner: 22:40

I think it's different when you're a parent like, uh, I get lucky to have all those experiences with five different kids, and especially my daughter now. Uh, she's one and a half and, like man, she is the best. Like I spend so much time with her, like in the mornings, like you know, sometimes I won't have anything to like one o'clock in the afternoon and we just like hang out and like, just like it's my favorite age and um, I don't know. Like I mean you get older and like things are more important to you, like that's more important to me than like cramming my calendar full from you know 9am to whatever. Like I'll get up, I'll do my stuff. You know my workout, my, my stretch, my meditation, my, all my stuff that I do, and then I'll help.

Jay Aigner: 23:26

The kids will get up and the kids on the bus and then, like, I'll just hang out, like, do stuff for the wife, help around the house, do whatever, and then you know, maybe I'll call 10, maybe we'll call it 11, maybe I don't have a call till two and they may not have any calls that day, and like, and then I have to kind of like pull myself into work and be like here's some lead generation and some uh prospecting stuff you need to do and here's some whatever, um, so it just yeah, it's, it's just very natural and it's kind of terrifying if you let it be like. You know what I mean. Like some people would be very scared, I think, of that existence, um, but it's working, so I'm just rolling with it.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:04

And I think that's that's key, you know, is this creating a life that you love? Is this adding value to the people in your family, the people who matter most? I mean, one day, somebody else is going to sit in the chair, you sit in at work, right Then? What? Then what? What are the relationships going to be like with the people who matter most to you? And it sounds like you're prioritizing those, and that matters. You mentioned a minute ago the discipline that you have in different parts of your life, because even in what may seem to some like a very fluid thing that just kind of moves and ebbs and flows, you to share that and talk about that a little bit, because I think people really appreciate learning from somebody who has that type of discipline.

Jay Aigner: 24:54

I can tell you I feel like I don't have enough, I feel like I struggle with it and I feel like I mean on paper I know that I do and like I know, but I, I just constantly feel like I should be. You know, like a to-do list is my best friend and my worst enemy, like I had to. Uh, I met this guy, greg Shepard, recently, like probably one of the most incredible people I've ever met, and he, um, he's like super successful, he's done all those different things Like we kind of just like hit it off on the podcast. And he, um, he's like super successful, he's done all those different things that we kind of just like hit it off on the podcast. And he became really good friends and we talk all the time and, um, he was, he was like well, he's like well, what are your objectives for the day? And it was, you know, it's like six o'clock in the morning. Whatever we're talking, I'm like I didn't.

Jay Aigner: 25:44

I have a to-do list, but I didn't have an objectives list and you know, you hear like the uh, some people do like the rock thing where, like they have like the big rock of stuff they're going to work on and then like the little things. I would just load up my to-do list with like a million things and then I would be like annoyed that I didn't get most of them done and like stuff will come up and I wouldn't do a bunch, and then it just got to be where it's like this big. It was like a backlog of like software development where you just like you don't want to look at it anymore. There's so much stuff on it. Um, it really really helped recently to just have an objective list. It's like a, it's like a punch list of like the most important things, because you can trick yourself, I think, into thinking things are important that aren't right. Like you can, like you can definitely convince yourself that you have 75 things to do today, like every day you wake up, but like, if you really really think about it and you're like what would define success or failure for this day, yes, then you can probably distill it down to some personal stuff that you need to do, some family stuff you need to do and some work stuff you need to do. Yeah, and like there's probably, you know, some days there's more stuff on there than others, but like you probably have a couple tasks on each of those and I don't think, um, you know, I don't think that I I haven't honed in yet, but I definitely think that abstracting at a level and not trying to be so granular certainly helps. And it's it's an interesting thing at the end of the day to look and have knocked off, you know, nine out of 10, as opposed to 10 out of a hundred, because you're like those were the most important things. You know, like, like the annoying shit you don't want to do, like there's stuff you don't want to do, right, there's just stuff you don't want to do. That's probably the most important stuff. That's like a very, not a cliche thing, but like renewing our health insurance for the year, my least favorite task of the entire 12 months. Right, it stays on my list, but then I realized like that is a objective, that is something I hate having to do. I have to do it and it has to go on the list and I just have to knock it out. I don't care if that's the only thing I do today, like I'm going to do this very important thing and then you just kind of add the other things around it. So, yeah, I feel like I'm disciplined.

Jay Aigner: 28:03

The morning wake up thing, it's all. I mean that's a routine, right? I mean, everybody talks about routines. I think I don't think you can get into a routine for everything, um, but my morning routine to getting up early, working out, stretch, meditate Um, that is a very grounding kind of thing, and the days that I do that, uh, I feel like I could run through a brick wall. The days that I don't, don't, I feel like, you know, a brick wall fell on me, like you, just don't feel the same. So, yeah, I mean I think I'm super disciplined in some areas, but I'm still growing and trying to learn, like, how to get more done in a day but also feel accomplished at the end of the day. It's not about just doing stuff, it's about doing the stuff that matters. Yeah, so that's, yeah, again, a work in progress and I love that transparency.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:54

I mean, I think that's authentic to who we all are, you know. I mean anybody who just says, oh, I've got. I've got everything going right in every area of my life. Just look at my highlight reel on instagram right, I mean like that's, that's not real that's, I think it's part I.

Jay Aigner: 29:09

I know it's not, but even I think I've been so programmed that I still feel like to some there's some like magical formula or like some people do have it all figured out, like is there anybody that really does? Because I feel like in my head there is, but maybe not not that I've ever met I haven't met him either. If we, if either one of us him, we'll have to introduce him.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:30

Absolutely, we'll introduce him around. That's it. Yes, I had a counselor tell me many years ago and I've shared this with so many clients over the years. She said you use the word should a lot. She said you need to stop shoulding all over yourself. I like that. Never forgotten that right man that's. That's that voice, one of the voices in your head. You know that's just like well, you should be well. Why aren't you doing this? Well, you should be. You should be farther along. You should be doing. What kind of a person parent, spouse are you?

Jay Aigner: 30:01

you should be right, you gotta be careful with that. What did you replace it with? What did you replace? Replace should with.

Dr. William Attaway: 30:08

I want to do the right things Right, and so what? And that's? That's a different trap. By the way, you can, you can, you can make this such an object of it's got to be perfect. The perfect becomes the enemy of getting anything done. But really it becomes like okay, instead of saying I should be what's what's the next right step. It becomes like okay, instead of saying I should be, what's the next right step, what's the next right action? I need to take.

Dr. William Attaway: 30:29

Yeah, you know. I don't know if you're familiar with David Allen's getting things done system. I don't think so. I've been using that since 2006, when I first read his book. I just interviewed him for the podcast not long ago and just a brilliant thinker around productivity. The thing I like the most about it is it's not about a specific tool, it's not about a specific you got to do this planner or this software. No, no, no. It's a methodology, right, and it's about uncovering exactly what you just described. Thinking at a different level. What are the most important things? What are the things that?

Dr. William Attaway: 31:06

would make today a win. When I go to bed tonight, what are the things that I'm going to say hey, I'm so glad I got those done. I feel great about this day. What are those things? You determine those things. You pre-decide, you pre-determine. You don't wait till the moment, because in the moment we make terrible decisions, you pre-decide I like that. It's made such a difference in my life and it has really helped me to tackle the should monster that is ever present between my ears.

Jay Aigner: 31:32

Yes, the should monster, I like that.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:36

You don't want to should your pants, that's for sure, that's so so true, you lead a team now of 60 plus people. You know that's that's not easy plus people. You know that's not easy and I watch a whole lot of entrepreneurs crash and burn when it comes to hiring and retaining good talent. Like that's hard. How do you do that? How do you find the right people that fit in your organization, that fit on your bus? To use Jim Collins terminology, how do you find the right people and how do you retain them over time?

Jay Aigner: 32:13

I think the simple answer is I just treat them like human beings. Um, I have always said I pay well for good work. People don't have to work for me. I'm very lucky to have anyone that wants to work with me. Um, yeah, I mean it's. There's no magical formula like if you're a likable person, which usually means you're a genuine person and you're a leader, I don't think it's that hard to get people to to want to work with you initially, and you know if you're there to support them when they have problems or you go to bat for them. You know if there's client issues or whatever. I mean everything again goes back to me Like it's it's my fault, not their fault. I think just you know, know, paying them a good wage, treating like good people, training them, wanting to see them succeed.

Jay Aigner: 33:20

Um, you know, and there's a bunch of stuff we do that's like not normal stuff. Like, uh, one of our employees in the philippines husband went to the hospital and like we figured out how to like get meals to them over there because she was having to like cook for all the kids in the family, and like I I don't even like telling that story because it's not the point of like why we did it. It was just like that's just an example of like how we try to think as an organization. It's like somebody's struggling man, like they're, they work for you, they're part of your team, like I don't know we're small enough that we can do that. I mean I would like to think like as big as we ever get, like we'll be able to do that, you know, I mean I don't think Walmart, like level, would really care if somebody was struggling or suffering or whatever.

Jay Aigner: 34:14

Um, but you know we're at the right size where we can do things like that. So I think just treating people you know, to use the old cliche from when you're a kid like how you want to be treated, yeah, uh is. I think that that's been our biggest win is just like people like like to work here. It's like a. You know it's a simple thing, but like a lot of people don't like to work other places and it's usually because of the way the company's run. So we try to make it a very friendly family environment where people can feel like they're supported and you know their employer cares about them I think that is the secret formula.

Dr. William Attaway: 34:53

I think treating people like actual 3d human beings instead of like cogs in the machine yeah, it is is so, so important, and that's what it sounds like you do I try again.

Jay Aigner: 35:05

It's always learning right. Learn the things to do.

Dr. William Attaway: 35:14

That's it. That's it, jay. You know you're not the same leader you were five years ago. You know you've grown, you've learned and a year from now, five years from now, your company and your team are going to need you to be a different leader than you are today. What do you do? How do you continue to level up? How do you stay on top of your game as a leader?

Jay Aigner: 35:35

Great question. I think it is obviously learning business skills and that career level stuff, where learning how to be a better leader through constant career growth for me and being you know how do I get better as the CEO of a software testing agency. But I think it's really just it's personal growth, right? I mean it's what it is Like. You're not like you have to be a better person, like away from your team, away from whoever, yeah, and like that's the person you bring back to your company and your team.

Jay Aigner: 36:21

So I think it's really just continuing to work on my self-discipline and just keep growing my listening skills and like the way that I process and react to information. So I I think it's personal growth is the only way to get better at like, not like going to a you know, I don't know like a business clinic or like you know some sort of like. Uh, some taking classes on being a leader or whatever like really wouldn't be for me. For me, it's the personal side of things, cause, again, like you said, I mean it's all mixed together for me, so I'm different than other people. But yeah, I think just just constantly trying to be a better human being makes me a better leader, which is how it's worked so far as far as like improving where I've come from and where I'm going to. So I think I'll just keep you know. Trying to grow myself.

Dr. William Attaway: 37:24

Absolutely, and that's, I think, the the, the focus is intentionality. Right, you know, you understand, you realize that it's not just going to happen, you're not going to wake up five years from now and magically have become a better leader Right and have the skills that you're going to need then yeah. You're going to have to start building those now.

Jay Aigner: 37:42

Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway: 37:45

Have you given thought to what you want your legacy to be?

Jay Aigner: 37:50

I have been asked this question before. Not really, man, I do. I try. And then I'm like the earth is going to get incinerated in like 3 billion years by the sun. So, like, if you don't do something that can outlast that, then like I don't know what you're doing, right, I mean and I say that like jokingly, but I, literally, I, I do mean it Like I don't know, like, are you going to do something that, like future generations that live on mars or some other planet or solar system or whatever like is gonna remember or do maybe?

Jay Aigner: 38:26

Um, so I don't know, I don't know what it's gonna be yet. I mean, I think in the short term, it's to be to raise kids that could be in those generations and contribute to those generations. I think that's the easy answer for a dad. Um, but yeah, I don't know yet, I don't know what it is like. I don't know, um, what lasting, like really lasting impact, right, I mean, even like the most famous guys in history today probably are not going to be remembered, like you know, uh, a million years from now or whatever it's like. Who are those people? I don't know. So I'm still in the search. For you know, like I said, the real short term answer is being the best dad I can, so I raise the best kids I can, and maybe they go on to do really great things or just be great people, and I'll be. I'll be happy with that.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:17

You know, one of my mentors says that your greatest contribution to the world may not be something you do. Yeah, it may be someone you raise.

Jay Aigner: 39:28

Yeah, that's true, that's true, that's. That's a goal for sure. Raise good humans.

Dr. William Attaway: 39:36

I think that's a good goal for all of us as parents. Raise good humans. I think that's a good goal for all of us as parents. You you have learned from a lot of different people over time. Is there a is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend everybody listening?

Jay Aigner: 39:51

that they add to their to read list. Yes, the Dale Carnegie how to win friends I think is an incredible book, it's great. And then, uh, the magic of thinking big, I think, by David Schwartz, was another one that I read that I really liked. I would kind of read those in order. I'd read that one first and then the Dale Carnegie book, because the magic of thinking big is like fairly old timey but it's very much just like like like you know, it's the precursor to like a lot of the they're all.

Jay Aigner: 40:25

By the way, all those books are recycled. Like every book is recycled Like every five to 10 years. Every business book is just like the same stuff, like it goes back to, like you trace it back to like JCPenney's books, like back in the sixties, like it's all the same stuff. But, yeah, I think those two would be my biggest recommendations. Those made a huge impact. I still think about the Dave Dale Carney book, like probably five times a week when I can say something stupid or like argue with my wife, or like do something, I'm just like it's not, you know, it's not worth it. Just just shut up and just, you know, move on.

Dr. William Attaway: 40:57

Yeah, that's a good word, you know. Up and just you know, move on. Yeah, that's good word, you know, when it comes to an argument with your wife, even if you win, oh no, that's the biggest thing I ever learned there's no, you're not if you win, you didn't win. That's the real thing.

Jay Aigner: 41:08

You win, you lose. That's a very, very true statement for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 41:14

You know, often, jay, people are going to walk away from an episode like this with one big idea.

Jay Aigner: 41:26

If you could define what you want that one big idea to be, what would you say? Start a business, or consult, or do something that you know? You can kind of define what your day-to-day life looks like. I think being stuck in the nine to five is a very antiquated concept. A lot of times people just fall into that trap and like I mean, look, if you're a doctor, you're a lawyer, whatever you got to kind of go into the system and do your thing. But in the tech world you probably can figure something out based on your experience or go to you know, boot camp or learn. You can do something to get a consulting gig. Yeah, just find another source of income. That's not just a nine to five. I think that's my biggest thing to share with anybody.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:14

Awesome. I know folks are going to want to stay connected with you, jay. Continue to learn from you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Jay Aigner: 42:22

LinkedIn Jay Agner, A-I-G-N-E-R or J-A-Q-A dot com. If you want to check us out, Love that.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:30

I really appreciate your honesty and transparency. Today, jay, you have you have shared so much insight from your journey so far. Thank you for that.

Jay Aigner: 42:38

Thank you. I appreciate you having me on man.

Dr. William Attaway: 42:42

Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 43:18

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, non-profits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.